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ric243

CS 727 bugs fixed?

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Hi all,I'm thinking of buying the CS727 (my favorite aircraft of all time!) but I have read of quite a few bugs, things like incorrect flap settings, dodgy autopilot, sound issues etc.Have these been fixed? Also I read that the flight model isn't exactly 100%; being as I was going to fly from a RW performance manual, is it at least reasonable in terms of EPR settings etc?Thanks guys.Richard

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I reviewed it for Avsim a while back and you can check out that review, but to save you some time if you don't want to read the review, here's the gist of it:Most of the stuff is fixed although there is still the odd thing you might like to tweak up yourself or use some settings other people have sussed out (the main issue is the trim, which is far too twitchy by default, but this is an easy fix). Keep in mind that if you get the Just Flight boxed version (which is the one I reviewed), that doesn't have the patches, so you'll be manually sorting it out, also note that the JF version has different paint jobs in it too, with a better selection of liveries in the download version from the CS site.My only serious gripe with it really was the fact that some of these fixes were so minor that it was annoying they should prove necessary when they could have easily been addressed in a change to the install version. That said, they are minor, and are fixable, but to be blunt that was the thing which prevented me from recommending it for a big shiny Avsim gong of some sort, so in effect it was laziness on the part of Captain Sim which prevented them from getting an Avsim award. Kind of shot themselves up the &@($* on that score, as it is a nice thing and came real close to snagging the plaudit, which as I say, it should really have got if they'd have done a patch rather than making the users sort it. sure it has a few compromises, but overall it is a really good add-on aeroplane.Personally I should have liked to see some suitable temp gauges on the thing so that EPR settings could be more easily employed, and I think they should have given us the charts for those too in the PDF manual for those who really wanted to fly by the book, although you can find these for yourself online and the temp gauges can be added too if you really want to do things that way, the necessary tweaks being a simple process no different from any other gauge swap or addition.It's not all gripes though, at least not on my part, because I do think some of the complaints about it are rather unjustified, for example, the vast majority of people complaining about the autopilot were doing so from a standpoint of not really understanding how aircraft of the 727's vintage actually work and how they were flown. That is to say, the autopilot in those days was largely something that was flipped on once the thing had been flown onto the correct heading and altitude, rather than being used to get it there, as is the case with modern airliners, so to expect it to capture thirty degree angles off with the kind of accuracy a shiny Airbus A320 or Boeing 737 NG can do is simply unrealistic, and unfair as a gripe. I discussed this at some length with a couple of pilots who flew the real thing, so this was not mere conjecture on my part incidentally. Another complaint is the lack of an INS, and whilst this is a little bit more understandable as a gripe for what would be a nice avionics addition, it is nevertheless the case that plenty of 727s never had INS and were flown using VOR navigation alone, even right up into the 1980s, although of course you could add a freeware INS to the panels if that was an issue, so in effect it is a non-issue.Thus the long and short of it is that the CS 727 for FSX can be made into a very reasonable representation of the actual Boeing 727 with a bit of work (not that hard either), but straight as it comes it has a few glitches. It is true that it has a few compromises, such as a shared flight model for a couple of variants which means one is overpowered and the other is underpowered, but again you could tweak that. This means you should not expect it to be bang on the numbers as a real 727 would be straight out of the box (or download), but it is close enough to be fun and can be made closer if you like tweaking flight models.Therefore, I would suggest that the CS 707 would be a better choice if you want a 'by the book' turbojet Boeing of that era without having to tweak it, as that one really is a nice piece of work - very accurate in most regards, has an INS and doppler radar, so is far better equipped for flying without using VORs and therefore less of a compromise - but of course the 727 can get off small runways, whereas the 707 really needs a big strip of tarmac, so keep that in mind. Alternatively, you could wait for their 737-100/200, which is coming along nicely from what I can gather.Generally speaking, if you really must have a 727, I don't think you'll be too sorry in buying the CS one, as with a little bit of work it can certainly satisfy 727 fans, and I should know, because I am one.Al

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You can see a hopefully current bug list here, we've collected quite some, regardless of their big or not so big nature. http://www.captainsi...?num=1287210019As for the flight model. Most guys are ok with the default one but there is some very competent user around which has tweaked the -100 and -200 to the rw docs data. This isn't a big thing to be done, just some files and lines in the aircraft.cfg change.He also made a small pack there, offering additional tools and gauges to really be on the point when it comes to rw values on e. g. the EPR gauges.Big recommendation from my side there, much fun to use and great work of his. http://www.captainsi...?num=1296889437The sound thing seems like a gauge problem but there's a workaround if you are an owner of the 707 (you then use her sound gauge). Some guys lose the cockpit click sounds when not using the workaround. Sometimes a reload of the plane helps then. There's a sound topic here. Go for the last page to catch the workaround. http://www.captainsi...?num=1264321545The autopilot is a tricky part of the plane, by design. A former rw 727 Captain explained this in the forums and you therefore are experiencing some "sluggish" or touchy behaviour as a very normal part of the operation. I think that the coupled/uncoupled flight director plays the biggest part in confusing people on the first view, when coming from more modern birds.This thread side e. g. shows you the approach procedure with that old AP explained by Lou, the former rw 727 pilot. http://www.captainsi...m=1234458523/60Overall statement. As CS already acknowledged the bugs from the linked bug list, the next step is to come out with the 727 2.5. But, be aware, they are currently on the 757 4.5, so there's no fixed timeline data. But they've acknowledged the work on it.For me, the user mods for the FDE and the ones for integrating the Civa INS make this thing a pleasure to operate. If you like the old school steam planes, this one is a nice addition.But also take the 707 into account. She's far more current, her bug list is way shorter and the optics are just amazing while you will see some age in the 727 cockpit for example.Edited. Oops, Alan was faster than me. He surely is a steam fan too. :( So maybe the links given in my post complement his picture and help you to decide about the plane.As he said, the 707 may be another or even better idea, but I wouldn't want to miss the 727 in my hangar.The CS forums are always a good place to start as the fan base is huge and the people are free to experiment, modify and tune with some useful outcome in my eyes.

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Hey guys,Thanks for the replies. I really am a fan of the 727; so I've been wanting to get one for FS for a long time. Think I'll go ahead then and tweak the files so I can use the RW performance manual with it. Now my only problem is I might find myself at sea until September with no access to my PC.......Oh well.Thanks again guys!

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If you are without a PC, then that's the perfect time to read this:http://www.amazon.com/Boeing-Flight-Master-John-Moktadier/dp/1418422320/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304297085&sr=8-1That book, in addition to a TWA B727 operations manual I also bought for the purposes of the review, was what I read in order to do the Avsim CS727 review, and it was well worth reading. It'll teach you how to fly the thing properly because it is intended for pilots of the real thing so they can pass a check ride on the 727. At nearly 600 pages, it's pretty damn comprehensive.Al

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Get this one too. :( http://www.amazon.co.../ref=pd_sim_b_4Honestly, nice tip there about the book. Thanks for that, Alan.

Now my only problem is I might find myself at sea until September with no access to my PC.......
Until September? :( Maybe you need some more book then. I'd go for the 727 one and something about the Concorde for example. Both "steamy" planes but very different and interesting approach towards things.After you've tuned the 727 FDE, you can really follow the numbers and aim for some hot and high airports later, to see how small the margin gets then. Praise the sim for this opportunity! :(

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Thanks for the help and the links; I had my eye on a Pan Am one but it was $70, whereas thats just over $40 so that's a help.Yeah I already have the Concorde flight manual from flightmanualsoncd.com; an absolutely fascinating read and I might get the simlabs concorde at some point. I prefer to stick with one type and get really into flying that aircraft though.The beauty of the 727 is it is a relatively simple aircraft system wise but it still has that ruggedness to it. Both types are pretty amazing feats of engineering really, the concorde in that it used shear inginuity to overcome a series of problems, but the 727 is just stubbon. Thanks again!!!

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Here's a link to the TWA manual I bought for a 727. This is a PDF scan rather than the actual document itself, but it is good quality and has all the EPR data in it amongst other things:http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Boeing-727-Aircraft-Flight-Manual-TWA-/310295456399?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483f0cea8fIf you want actual genuine manuals, I'd recommend Essco, I bought a B707 manual from there, but it was pretty expensive and it had no binder, although other than that it is good.http://www.esscoaircraft.com/Al

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For me the 727 is good as it is now, no showstopping bugs. I am big fan of big Boeings, so I know what I say!BTW thanks for links to manuals, guys! Gotta get one.

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You can see a hopefully current bug list here, we've collected quite some, regardless of their big or not so big nature. http://www.captainsi...?num=1287210019

 

Just bought this plane and searched for issues, found this thread. This link still the most current and complete list?

 

Not sure if proper, when I start cold and dark from the provided CS727 save file(reloading plane 2x), are the flaps suppose to operate? Cause they do.

 

Aside, this linked list is 2 years old, I don't think we will ever see another update from CS for this plane.

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I've never tried the flaps when nothing is running. But I could imagine that the sim model has them working. :mellow:

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Not to mention when you turn the lights on (pressing L), no matter what the plane goes to full flaps all by itself.

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Sure? I don't recall that but I don't use 'L'. I'm only switching the lights with the VC switches. Must admit that this would be a very strange dependency. Now the plane does have some bugs but L leading to full flaps?

 

Does it make a difference if you load her one or twice? I always load her once, with the sound 'fix', which is the altered sound gauge (from the 707). This avoids the need to reload the plane and, maybe, some later problems.

 

I guess we agree that she could make good use of a final service pack. :mellow:

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Hahaha, Captain Sim fixing bugs - that's a good one. They need to master the art of actually finishing an aircraft first :lol:

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Sure? . :mellow:

 

Feel free to try it and confirm the issue. Lord knows my system isn't perfect but I'm pretty certain these are flap bugs.

 

Don't have to hit L key either, just sit there with plane 'warmed up and running' and turn on the taxi lights on the overhead panel, flaps go down full, #####?

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If you are using FSUIPC make sure your controllers are turned off in fsx itself. I am using windows 8 and I have to use FSUIPC exclusively. But sometimes when I startup FSX the controllers option will be turned on and I always know this because no matter what aircraft I have loaded the flaps go to full including the CS727.

 

Hope that helps.

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I don´t have any problems with the CS727 flaps/lights either. Maybe there is something else interfering with your sim. For example, the same key for both?

 

Not long ago i did this, assigning different actions with the same key in FSX parameters and in fsuipc. So everytime, i opened a door, the camera changed to outside view :) :)

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Don't have to hit L key either, just sit there with plane 'warmed up and running' and turn on the taxi lights on the overhead panel, flaps go down full, #####?

Now I'm still away from my sys, but I will try that for sure. I do not recall any problems of that kind. But the plane itself, as said, does have a few bugs indeed. :mellow:

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Key assignments seem to check out. Don't have full version of FSUIPC. Hmm...well I do have the V-One gauge and shockwave lights installed, must be that, trying...

 

Edit: Found the cause. An effects gauge I have installed calls to the taxi lights. Edited out the lines and now all is ok.

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