Hi,is manual reversion modeled in the NGX or is it even possible to replicate itwithin FSX? What I mean is, does it in any way affect the steering forces you need in FSX. Regards Sven

is manual reversion modeled in the NGX or is it even possible to replicate itwithin FSX?

Taking a rough guess I'm speculating it is.

What I mean is, does it in any way affect the steering forces you need in FSX.

Now on that part, I speculate a big no-no. How would it affect steering forces? That would obviously work with force feedback devices exclusively but even then, all those I know are so weak you won't even get any close to what manual reversion will actually feel like on the real counterpart. Their max forces would most likely be attained during quite normal maneuvers already. OTOH, I suspect a certain control sluggishness could be modelled, which probably isn't even that far off after all, especially in case manual reversion only drives balance tabs instead of the whole surface, which in turn I do not remember off the top of my head at the moment. Let's give the devs a chance to comment though (if they like). :(

I'm quite sure it will be modeled. But the actual experience may be hard to attain. I once had the opportunity to try manual reversion on a 737-200 at my school. Let me tell you, it took all I had to move them controls. Now I'm sure some of it had to do with, that the aircraft wasnt flying, but the sense that it took that much strength to move the control surfaces was an interesting experience.

I'm quite sure it will be modeled. But the actual experience may be hard to attain. I once had the opportunity to try manual reversion on a 737-200 at my school. Let me tell you, it took all I had to move them controls. Now I'm sure some of it had to do with, that the aircraft wasnt flying

Oh, ok so you're saying to tried it with no hyd px, but on the ground? Since that's what I did as well, and it was basically two of us yanking the control column at times. So no comment on how it will actually be in flight, but it can't be much better. In fact I had an interesting conversation with knowledgable Jack a while ago, of which I'd like to post the following excerpt (I hope he dont mind):

Its a bit of a challenge to say the least. The response is very slow and you have to lead the controls a lot. It is very eay to start overcontrolling in this situation. [...] Not only is is harder to move the controls, it also has a lagging feel to it. So if you turn the control wheel, the plane doesnt respond instantly.......or at least it feels that way.

Plus he mentions that during manual reversion the whole surfaces will move, which I was unsure about in the reply above. Interestingly enough though, you can just get a grip on the control surface itself and move it up and down, which is quite an easy task compared to moving the yoke. So I believe it can't just be the cable friction but there has got to be some "gear ratio" in between, sort of, if that makes any sense.

We don't have today proper simulation of "normal" yoke forces yet you guys are dreaming of manual reversion :(

We don't have today proper simulation of "normal" yoke forces yet you guys are dreaming of manual reversion :(

Point taken, but then you can basically say all the FDE work has been done for nothing since the bird will feel very different (hence "unrealistic", if you will) depending on the type of input device you use anyway, so...:( I think it would very well make a difference if you have a normal operating mode of controlling the aircraft plus one that at least "feels" significantly different in terms of responsiveness and such.

I think it would very well make a difference if you have a normal operating mode of controlling the aircraft plus one that at least "feels" significantly different

This is where I have my serious doubts. It would certainly make a difference in a fly-by-wire aircraft but 737NG is not such an aircraft. I have a strong hunch than in our silly joystick reality it would virtually be the same thing.

I'm quite sure it will be modeled. But the actual experience may be hard to attain. I once had the opportunity to try manual reversion on a 737-200 at my school. Let me tell you, it took all I had to move them controls. Now I'm sure some of it had to do with, that the aircraft wasnt flying, but the sense that it took that much strength to move the control surfaces was an interesting experience.

Its the same if flying or not, you need o lot of armstrength to steer...Regards Sven

Of course it is. You'll notice a big change in the handling of the aircraft. A At lower speeds you even get some very basic yaw dumping by interconnecting the elevators with the rudder movement. As for the rudder movement in case oh HYD failure you use the standby hydraulic system which is modeled to the last detail.

This is where I have my serious doubts. It would certainly make a difference in a fly-by-wire aircraft but 737NG is not such an aircraft. I have a strong hunch than in our silly joystick reality it would virtually be the same thing.

We've invented something we've been calling "fly-by-software" around the virtual office here... essentially all joystick commands to the NGX are intercepted before reaching FSX - we can modify them and cause whatever effect we want this way - that's how we're able to simulate manual reversion, failures to the flight control system etc. It really is the same way that for instance an Airbus or a fighter jet has a computer that sits between the flight controls and the control surfaces augmenting the inputs. Only in our case, we're using that sort of idea to make the control inputs variable and realistic - the controls actually respond differently at slow vs. high airspeeds, situations like manual reversion of failures etc. It's really neat and one of those things that's going to set this apart from a lot of other addons.

Wow...Tero

This is where I have my serious doubts. It would certainly make a difference in a fly-by-wire aircraft but 737NG is not such an aircraft. I have a strong hunch than in our silly joystick reality it would virtually be the same thing.

Since different aircraft do actually feel different on the sim, notice how the 744 compared to the FA-18, I'm pretty sure is will definately not be the same. After all it does make a difference if you have kinda direct or kinda sluggish controls, and you'll even get that impression with your joystick, however (un)realistic it will be in terms of leverage and forces.

Its the same if flying or not, you need o lot of armstrength to steer...

How could that be? I agree you need "a lot", but I'm convinced you need a lot more whilst flying. Despite the cable friction and all, there simply is no air load on the ground. As long as hyd px equals zero the controls are not much different from a Cessna, and I go as far to say there is a noticable difference in control forces with and without air load.

We've invented something we've been calling "fly-by-software" around the virtual office here... essentially all joystick commands to the NGX are intercepted before reaching FSX - we can modify them and cause whatever effect we want this way - that's how we're able to simulate manual reversion, failures to the flight control system etc. It really is the same way that for instance an Airbus or a fighter jet has a computer that sits between the flight controls and the control surfaces augmenting the inputs. Only in our case, we're using that sort of idea to make the control inputs variable and realistic - the controls actually respond differently at slow vs. high airspeeds, situations like manual reversion of failures etc. It's really neat and one of those things that's going to set this apart from a lot of other addons.

Thank you, exactly what I figured. Probably the only viable way that makes sense to simulate it anyway striving for such a high level of fidelity.

So I believe it can't just be the cable friction but there has got to be some "gear ratio" in between, sort of, if that makes any sense.

That's correct. One of the reasons the controls change a lot on manual reversion is that the gearing of the elevator tabs is altered to reduce their deflection. This is because of the way the system works differently to move the control surface in manual reversion mode, that change also explains the control lag: Instead of smoothly moving the elevator directly, in manual reversion, the power control unit actuator for the elevator has to travel all the way to the stops before it then operates the elevator, the time it takes to do that is apparently what makes the yoke feel sloppy and gives it a big dead zone, and why inputs have to be anticipated more than when the hydraulics are doing things. That also explains why there is often a need to alter the elevator trim massively if the hydraulics are lost.You could theoretically simulate all of that (apart from the actual pressure needed to move the thing) by screwing around with your joystick setting dead zones and sensitivities. I guess all this stuff is for the real propeller-heads, but it will at least be fun if you can play around with that stuff in PMDG's FSX NG via the actual systems in the VC. Perhaps they will include a bottle full of various smelly lubricants and JP that you can tip over yourself so that you can simulate the smells from having done a walkaround too :( Al

We've invented something we've been calling "fly-by-software" around the virtual office here... essentially all joystick commands to the NGX are intercepted before reaching FSX - we can modify them and cause whatever effect we want this way - that's how we're able to simulate manual reversion, failures to the flight control system etc. It really is the same way that for instance an Airbus or a fighter jet has a computer that sits between the flight controls and the control surfaces augmenting the inputs. Only in our case, we're using that sort of idea to make the control inputs variable and realistic - the controls actually respond differently at slow vs. high airspeeds, situations like manual reversion of failures etc. It's really neat and one of those things that's going to set this apart from a lot of other addons.

That's what I never expected to be possible, outstanding.Regards Sven

That's correct. One of the reasons the controls change a lot on manual reversion is that the gearing of the elevator tabs is altered to reduce their deflection. This is because of the way the system works differently to move the control surface in manual reversion mode, that change also explains the control lag: Instead of smoothly moving the elevator directly, in manual reversion, the power control unit actuator for the elevator has to travel all the way to the stops before it then operates the elevator, the time it takes to do that is apparently what makes the yoke feel sloppy and gives it a big dead zone, and why inputs have to be anticipated more than when the hydraulics are doing things. That also explains why there is often a need to alter the elevator trim massively if the hydraulics are lost.You could theoretically simulate all of that (apart from the actual pressure needed to move the thing) by screwing around with your joystick setting dead zones and sensitivities. I guess all this stuff is for the real propeller-heads, but it will at least be fun if you can play around with that stuff in PMDG's FSX NG via the actual systems in the VC. Perhaps they will include a bottle full of various smelly lubricants and JP that you can tip over yourself so that you can simulate the smells from having done a walkaround too :( Al

Hey Al, great insight, thanks for that. Oh, and had a great laugh at that last bit, obviously... :(