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Dougal

Question Please?

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Hello folksIs it either acceptable and/or common for pilots to exit a SID before it's end point?Take the AJ1M departyre from RCTP below, that ends at KAPLI. My flightplan took me off to ELATO.... Is that okay in r/w proceedures?

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I dont know about the particular procedure you posted, but I do know that its normal and quite common for the departure controller to give you a direct to clearance while in the air. It mostly depends on the traffic. If the traffic is light then you are more likely to be given direct tos. EDIT: After rereading your post it sounds like you never want to fly the entire procedure. When that happens I think you should file for a different departure or file the waypoints you need instead.

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It's not unknown for aircraft to be given instructions to 'proceed direct under own navigation' when initially on a SID route. The SID is just to get all of ATC's 'ducks in a row' to avoid conflicts, but if you are the only duck in that particular bit of airspace and it can save you ten miles, ATC will let you turn early for your main route, since despite what often seems to be the case, they are there to help you and expedite your progress, and if they get you out of their airspace and on your way, it actually frees them up too, so they've every reason to try. But you should aim for a SID that kind of points you in the right direction anyway.If you listen to ATC (in the real world), you will find that it's not as regimented as FS would have you believe, for example, there are lots of times where airliners will be told 'no speed restriction' when they are well under 10,000 feet or on a SID or STAR with published speed limits, and again, it's about expediting things.Al

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In the UK SIDS are commonly the noise preferential routes as well. Whatever the traffic situation, ATC will not divert aircaft from these below a height of 3000 ft.

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Looking at the image, you probably are flying this route: RCPT MKG A1 ELATO A1 MAGOG VHHX. The AJ1M SID terminates at MKG, so you are not leaving the SID early.The extra waypoints after MKG in your EFB are parts of an RNAV transition, which you should not file unless you actually want to fly it.

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Looking at the image, you probably are flying this route: RCPT MKG A1 ELATO A1 MAGOG VHHX. The AJ1M SID terminates at MKG, so you are not leaving the SID early.The extra waypoints after MKG in your EFB are parts of an RNAV transition, which you should not file unless you actually want to fly it.
Ah, now it all makes sense. Seems that perhaps I'm not 'correctly' using EFP then...?

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Ah, now it all makes sense. Seems that perhaps I'm not 'correctly' using EFP then...?
Much as I like EFB, it doesn't give you all the information about a SID that is printed on a chart. Deciding not to fly the transition is fairly obvious from reading the chart (found using Google), less so in EFB.(If you don't want to include the transition in your EFB flight plan, just select the SID in EFB but don't select the transition).

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Funny really - Been simming for over ten years, but only just getting into 'CORRECTLY' trying to use SIDS & STARS.Talking of which, if these STARS shown below are correct, what is the reason for overflying EGKK so far - will it be for noise abatement or the like?EDIT: Oops, no pic. Will try again...

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Talking of which, if these STARS shown below are correct, what is the reason for overflying EGKK so far - will it be for noise abatement or the like?
This is just guessing, but looking at the map it looks like it has more to do with keeping traffic inbound to Gatwick from the north well away from the other busy airports in the area.

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Funny really - Been simming for over ten years, but only just getting into 'CORRECTLY' trying to use SIDS & STARS.Talking of which, if these STARS shown below are correct, what is the reason for overflying EGKK so far - will it be for noise abatement or the like?EDIT: Oops, no pic. Will try again...
Whatever else they may be, rhe lines are not STARs. I've overlaid the actual STARs as accurately as I can on your chart - none of them are straight lines.The pink line appears to be WILLO 3B which actually is from KIDLI via MID (west of Gatwick) to the hold at WILLO (south of Gatwick) - RED.TIMBA 2H is from TRIPO via SPEAR, DET, and LARCK to a hold at TIMBA - BLUE.TIMBA 3E is from KOPUL via TANET, DET, and LARCK also to a hold at TIMBA - GREEN. The parallel sections of TIMBA 2H and TIMBA 3E passs north and south of danger areas - the Shoeburyness firing ranges.

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Whatever else they may be, rhe lines are not STARs. I've overlaid the actual STARs as accurately as I can on your chart - none of them are straight lines.
Those dashed lines that EFB uses in this overview are to indicate the intial and final STAR fixes, that's why they're straight lines. (If transitions were included, they'd be drawn as well - more straight lines though.)As you note, to the west, WILLO 3B and ASTRA 2B both start at KIDLI - one to WILLO the other to ASTRA. To the east, TIMBA 2H and TIMBA 3E both end at TIMBA, starting from TRIPO and KOPUL.I believe the intent is that if the actual STARs were all drawn together, it's possible that such a chart could become quite a mess with curves and holds and altitude/speed restrictions - perhaps not with this representation, but certainly with others. Still though, what if each procedure had its own primary color? Would that be helpful, or just a mish-mash of colored lines?

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Those dashed lines that EFB uses in this overview are to indicate the intial and final STAR fixes, that's why they're straight lines. (If transitions were included, they'd be drawn as well - more straight lines though.)As you note, to the west, WILLO 3B and ASTRA 2B both start at KIDLI - one to WILLO the other to ASTRA. To the east, TIMBA 2H and TIMBA 3E both end at TIMBA, starting from TRIPO and KOPUL.I believe the intent is that if the actual STARs were all drawn together, it's possible that such a chart could become quite a mess with curves and holds and altitude/speed restrictions - perhaps not with this representation, but certainly with others.Still though, what if each procedure had its own primary color? Would that be helpful, or just a mish-mash of colored lines?
STARs are more than start and end points - they are the path to be flown. The lines on the diagram are not STARs as I pointed out to avoid people being misled. This is thread about flying instrument proceedures, which many people want to fly as realistically as possible. It would be just as unrealistic to fly direct from the start to end points of a SID or STAR as to fly direct from airport to airport..The diagram is headed EGPF - EGKK progress. All the standard routes between the two use WILLO STARs and none use the easterly TIMBA STARs. even though Glagow (EGPF) is north of Gatwick.

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STARs are more than start and end points - they are the path to be flown. The lines on the diagram are not STARs as I pointed out to avoid people being misled.
The EFB image shows an overview of STARs into EGKK from the north. Once you choose one, EFB will display the full path of that particular STAR.

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The EFB image shows an overview of STARs into EGKK from the north. Once you choose one, EFB will display the full path of that particular STAR.
Indeed.MPH, the fact that EDMP is showing them as straight lines is simply as stated above. It's the 'Overview' option, NOT a show or display STAR option.

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Indeed.MPH, the fact that EDMP is showing them as straight lines is simply as stated above. It's the 'Overview' option, NOT a show or display STAR option.
It was you who said they were STARs and asked if they were correct.
...Talking of which, if these STARS shown below are correct, what is the reason for overflying EGKK so far - will it be for noise abatement or the like?...
I answered by pointing out that they were not STARs and that they showed incorrect routing.

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Why so 'testy'?Like I said... "Funny really - Been simming for over ten years, but only just getting into 'CORRECTLY' trying to use SIDS & STARS"Which means I'M NOT an expert and no very little about them.So, give me a break eh?

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Why so 'testy'?Like I said... "Funny really - Been simming for over ten years, but only just getting into 'CORRECTLY' trying to use SIDS & STARS"Which means I'M NOT an expert and no very little about them.So, give me a break eh?
Why not give me a break? You asked a question and I tried to be helpful by answering it.

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...and for my next daft question...What are the 'CORRECT' methods of approach from the STAR?I've looked at various posts and other sites, and there seems to be some debate about what is, or isn't the most normal course of events from there.From what I understand, what is considered normal for the approach, also differs between countries too?Please TRY to bear with me as, unlike the guy in the other thread, I actually CAN have difficulty absorbing technical data :( Ta!

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...and for my next daft question...What are the 'CORRECT' methods of approach from the STAR?I've looked at various posts and other sites, and there seems to be some debate about what is, or isn't the most normal course of events from there.From what I understand, what is considered normal for the approach, also differs between countries too?Please TRY to bear with me as, unlike the guy in the other thread, I actually CAN have difficulty absorbing technical data :( Ta!
In the real world an aircraft would normally be given vectors to fly from a hold to the final approach. Also, in the real world, there are Initial Approch Proceedures to fly from the holds to the FAP/FAF when radar vectoring isn't available. These are shown here:http://www.ead.euroc..._2011-03-10.pdfhttp://www.ead.euroc..._2011-04-07.pdfEDIT: To clarify this for the UK.

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I strongly recommend flying a bit online, you'd be forced to learn all these things just by flying. Of course, if you dont know anything about real life aviation then you'd have to spend a bunch of hours researching, for example the atc "language". Flying online is one of the most fun ways to learn aviation in my opinion, highly recommended.

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In your example the answer is simple. You are flying the STAR to TIMBA. The rwy 08R approach into EGKK has a defined transition from TIMBA, so in this case there is no need for vectors.In EFB, with the STAR already selected as in your image, go to the "Approach" tab then right-click on "EGKK Approach" on the left side of the screen. Choose "Select Approach", then select your runway ("08R"), procedure ("ILS Rwy 08R") and finally the transition ("TIMBA (East)").

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Okay thanks guys.That gives me more to go on.The REAL answer would have been to find this stuff out ten years ago :(

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Special thank to Trisager.You've shown me that I've been missing a whole section out when using EFB - Duh!

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I've downloasded EFB to try it out. So far I'm impressed with it's facilities and functions.The only downside was that when I had FSX and Firefox running, opening EFB eventually crashed my XP system. Anyone else had yhis problem?

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