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dazz

Innsbruck LOC/DME West approach

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Questions for the pilots and experienced simmers please.Been practicing approaches with the maddog to Innsbruck and found the LOC/DME West one to have a very steep descent starting at D20.4 OEJ. I need to go down at about 1600 - 1800 fpm to be at 5000ft at ABSAM NDB and minimum speed with full 40 degrees flaps and gear down is 180 knots throughout the final descent in the localizer (OEJ R-067). Does that look about right or is there some flight dynamics limitation of FSX making it necessary to go down on full flaps and gear down? Is it ok to start the right turn at ABSAM, not right over it but a bit to the left, to have some more room to make the turn, or does the visual part need to start exactly at ABSAM?What happens if I can barely see the runway before RUM at 5000ft but then after the turn the visibility is not good enough to see the runway below that? I mean I saw the RW before DA, but I still need to turn around and see it from further away and lower. What would be the right thing to do to decide when to land and when to go around? Going around in poor visibility there is pretty scary LOLinnchartfull.jpgThanks in advanced

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Tricky approach indeed. I guess if you have to do a MA after the turn at ABSAM, you'll have to follow the MA procedure for the LOC DME EAST approach chart. There you do a sharp left turn at D1 before OEV LLZ to course 060 up to ABSAM. Then you continue the MA proc to RTT staying on the LLZ course. That's what I would do. Or you could use the Visual Approach procedure chart(s) as guidance where a circling pattern is drawn over the airport. This is probably the correct procedure.As for the turn to final, I think you need to turn exactly at AB. The visual app begins at the NDB.

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Tricky approach indeed. I guess if you have to do a MA after the turn at ABSAM, you'll have to follow the MA procedure for the LOC DME EAST approach chart. There you do a sharp left turn at D1 before OEV LLZ to course 060 up to ABSAM. Then you continue the MA proc to RTT staying on the LLZ course. That's what I would do. Or you could use the Visual Approach procedure chart(s) as guidance where a circling pattern is drawn over the airport. This is probably the correct procedure.As for the turn to final, I think you need to turn exactly at AB. The visual app begins at the NDB.
Thank you Emil, that makes complete sense to use the East approach criteria for MA when landing on 26, and for runway 8, I guess if visibility is not good enough one shouldn't be trying a visual approach in the first place hehe.

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The ABSAM beacon is the missed approach point, so that is the latest that you can (legally) make your decision to land or go missed. After that point you are flying visually, and it is up to you to remain clear of terrain and obstacles.The glidepath is steep, 4.7 degrees compared to the normal 3 degrees, so the Maddog will need some drag to keep the speed manageable. As I recall, my own attempts in the Maddog did not go so well :(

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Would jets actually be cleared for that approach?Just wondering about the missed approach point as well. On a non-prescision approach you normally descend to MDA then go missed if you pass the MAPt before you see the runway or approach lights. Well for this approach, the runway's behind you, so how does that work?!

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If you want to get more detailed informations about the procedures at LOWI, got to the Eurocontrol site, open a free account for EAD Basic and you have free access to all relevant data for all airports in Europe and especially for LOWI in this case.

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Would jets actually be cleared for that approach?Just wondering about the missed approach point as well. On a non-prescision approach you normally descend to MDA then go missed if you pass the MAPt before you see the runway or approach lights. Well for this approach, the runway's behind you, so how does that work?!
Exactly, that's what got me thinking and hence my question :(
The ABSAM beacon is the missed approach point, so that is the latest that you can (legally) make your decision to land or go missed. After that point you are flying visually, and it is up to you to remain clear of terrain and obstacles.The glidepath is steep, 4.7 degrees compared to the normal 3 degrees, so the Maddog will need some drag to keep the speed manageable. As I recall, my own attempts in the Maddog did not go so well :(
I believe ABSAM is the MA point for the East approach, not the West one. Coming from the West ABSAM is well past the runway and if I got it right from the charts, the MA point is RUM at 5000ft some 2nm before ABSAM.And in the East approach, the MA point (ABSAM at 4470 ft) is further away from the RW than the DA points (3400, 3900 or 4400 ft depending on visibility) so does that mean that you can keep descending past the MA point ABSAM?I'm so confused :(
If you want to get more detailed informations about the procedures at LOWI, got to the Eurocontrol site, open a free account for EAD Basic and you have free access to all relevant data for all airports in Europe and especially for LOWI in this case.
thanks Otto, I'll do that right now B)

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The ABSAM beacon is the missed approach point, so that is the latest that you can (legally) make your decision to land or go missed. After that point you are flying visually, and it is up to you to remain clear of terrain and obstacles.The glidepath is steep, 4.7 degrees compared to the normal 3 degrees, so the Maddog will need some drag to keep the speed manageable. As I recall, my own attempts in the Maddog did not go so well :(
Correction: yep, the Visual Approach Procedure clearly states that ABSAM is the MAP for the West app, so looks to me like you're completely right thereOk, I just tried the visual circuit to circle around and land on RW 08... that's completely insane! as you start to turn to base you are barely 300ft AGL and the GPWS goes nuts LOL, and then on final you find yourself over the valley and still quite high just 3 miles away from the runway. Do jets really fly that pattern or are they only allowed to land on 26?

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Correction: yep, the Visual Approach Procedure clearly states that ABSAM is the MAP for the West app, so looks to me like you're completely right thereOk, I just tried the visual circuit to circle around and land on RW 08... that's completely insane! as you start to turn to base you are barely 300ft AGL and the GPWS goes nuts LOL, and then on final you find yourself over the valley and still quite high just 3 miles away from the runway. Do jets really fly that pattern or are they only allowed to land on 26?
Apparently they do. I got some LOWI charts specifically made for the 737, and all the charts are there; east, west, visual etc.rwy08 app:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKa9ILqgtS4&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DenurwQhnDc

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This isn't a runway aligned procedure. As such, you will need to turn and line up with the runway visually. On the chart, you will notice that the AB locator (Absam) is the last point on the vertical profile before it starts climbing again - this indicates that it is the missed approach point. From this point, you must execute the missed approach procedure if you are not visual. If you are visual, you must turn to the visual circuit to establish onto final.In this case, you would probably make a right turn onto downwind once you are visual. If you are getting GPWS warnings, you need to turn tighter (25 degree angle of bank, make sure you are not going too fast).CheersNick Jones

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This isn't a runway aligned procedure. As such, you will need to turn and line up with the runway visually. On the chart, you will notice that the AB locator (Absam) is the last point on the vertical profile before it starts climbing again - this indicates that it is the missed approach point. From this point, you must execute the missed approach procedure if you are not visual. If you are visual, you must turn to the visual circuit to establish onto final.In this case, you would probably make a right turn onto downwind once you are visual. If you are getting GPWS warnings, you need to turn tighter (25 degree angle of bank, make sure you are not going too fast).CheersNick Jones
Yeah, I just came in to high and didn't do the turn tight enough so I got too close to the mountains and it was hard to line up with the runway. Thanks for the tips Nick

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This isn't a runway aligned procedure. As such, you will need to turn and line up with the runway visually. On the chart, you will notice that the AB locator (Absam) is the last point on the vertical profile before it starts climbing again - this indicates that it is the missed approach point. From this point, you must execute the missed approach procedure if you are not visual. If you are visual, you must turn to the visual circuit to establish onto final.In this case, you would probably make a right turn onto downwind once you are visual. If you are getting GPWS warnings, you need to turn tighter (25 degree angle of bank, make sure you are not going too fast).CheersNick Jones
But visual with what?!

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Would jets actually be cleared for that approach?
Yes.I did this in the LSH MD-82 when flying multi-crew and did it first time. 180 kts IAS is far too fast. You want to go down with Flap 15 and gear up, as slow as she'll go in that config. You must remember it is a high angle descent (I figure 2.75% gradient) requiring 1500 ft/min at 180 kts GS (approx. 150 kts IAS at 10000 ft). Use gear if necessary for additional drag (speed brakes are prohibited with flaps extended).Note that you ALSO require the Visual Landing chart, separately.
Is it ok to start the right turn at ABSAM, not right over it but a bit to the left, to have some more room to make the turn, or does the visual part need to start exactly at ABSAM?
In two words: ABSOLUTELY NOT! You can NOT make your own procedures. Your method would reduce terrain clearance, and you'd be asking for CFIT. Fly the procedure as published. If you can't fly the procedure, practice. If your aircraft can't meet the requirements, you can't fly it.Best regards,Robin.

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But visual with what?!
I suggest consulting dictionary what 'visual' means.But on another subject the chart above is really very poorly done. The real pilots have a lot better chart for this approach.

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Yes.I did this in the LSH MD-82 when flying multi-crew and did it first time. 180 kts IAS is far too fast. You want to go down with Flap 15 and gear up, as slow as she'll go in that config. You must remember it is a high angle descent (I figure 2.75% gradient) requiring 1500 ft/min at 180 kts GS (approx. 150 kts IAS at 10000 ft). Use gear if necessary for additional drag (speed brakes are prohibited with flaps extended).Note that you ALSO require the Visual Landing chart, separately. See the following. First is the West Procedure LLZ Chart, the second is the visual approach chart.Here is an actual chart (conveniently, for the B737):....Best regards,Robin.
Thanks Robin. Sure enough, 1500 fpm with flaps 15 and gear up works great at 180 IAS (noob mistake on my part that I overlooked the fact that it's at FL120 and GS is of course lower than that). Just like the first time I did the visual part I didn't turn tight enough, I captured the localizer too close to the airfield too so I had to do a steeper descent. I was coming from the south and turned right at KTI resulting in a late LLZ interception@ Michael, I think he means "visual on the runway" because it's already behind you at ABSAM so you reach the MAP without RW visual coming from the West. I suppose it's up to the pilot to decide if visibility is good enough to start the visual procedure

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180 IAS (noob mistake on my part that I overlooked the fact that it's at FL120 and GS is of course lower than that).
???Unless you had a strong headwind, GS would be HIGHER than IAS. It is ground speed that counts.Best regards,Robin.

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???Unless you had a strong headwind, GS would be HIGHER than IAS. It is ground speed that counts.Best regards,Robin.
Duh! did I happen to mention the noob mistakes I keep making? :( In that case I'm not sure how you managed to go down at 1500 fpm / 150 IAS with flaps 15 and gear up in the maddog Robin, I'll try again later but 180 IAS is what I saw yesterday

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I suggest consulting dictionary what 'visual' means.But on another subject the chart above is really very poorly done. The real pilots have a lot better chart for this approach.
Don't be a patronising arse. To be visual has a specific meaning for an approach chart which cannot apply in this case, so answer the question or keep quiet any let someone who actually knows the answer to respond.

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In that case I'm not sure how you managed to go down at 1500 fpm / 150 IAS with flaps 15 and gear up in the maddog Robin
I brought the speed back and took flap as I went. :) 150 kts can be done at 10000 ft (or even FL130 at the start of the procedure). It seems slow, sure, but it can be done! Remember that at 13000 ft at 150 kts IAS the ground speed is ~189 kts (assuming zero wind!!!).To calculate the correct vertical rate:Required vertical rate = (Ground speed in kts / 60) * feet per nautical mileSo at Innsbruck, using your 180 kts IAS for the example:(226.8 / 60) * 5003.78 * 500 = 1890 ft/minI'd extend slats only and pull the speed brake.Best regards,Robin.

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I brought the speed back and took flap as I went. :) 150 kts can be done at 10000 ft (or even FL130 at the start of the procedure). It seems slow, sure, but it can be done! Remember that at 13000 ft at 150 kts IAS the ground speed is ~189 kts (assuming zero wind!!!).To calculate the correct vertical rate:Required vertical rate = (Ground speed in kts / 60) * feet per nautical mileSo at Innsbruck, using your 180 kts IAS for the example:(226.8 / 60) * 5003.78 * 500 = 1890 ft/minI'd extend slats only and pull the speed brake.Best regards,Robin.
Thanks for that Robin I'll try slats + speedbrakes

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Don't forget that if you need to, drop the gear, too, as it is permissible to use it to decelerate.Best regards,Robin.

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Normally you need visual reference with the runway environment (lights, etc.) to be 'visual' during a circle-to-land manoeuvre.However, since there is a published visual manoeuvring track (on a separate chart), you only need to have sufficient visual references to navigate by ground (or water) features.CheersNick Jones

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Please correct me, if I am wrong, but the real world chart of the WEST approach retrieved from EAD seem to me to only refer to RWY 26 not 08.In FSX it was challenging but not a big problem to even bring in the PMDG MD11 or J41 (though the latter is a hell to slow down) doing the visual turn and approach to final at about -900 fpm.I am, however, not an expert so maybe the same procedure would be used for 08. But I believe that-s what the EAST approach is meant for. I am not sure, which approaches the vids show.Thus I guess your sim chart is wrong in this respect; but again, please correct me if I'm wrong.Regarding missed approach from short final, you are - as has been mentioned before - in Visual and thus on your own. Would be natural to follow the visual T/O procedure and head for RTT as soon as possible I guess.Cheers,Clemens Kuehn

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Questions for the pilots and experienced simmers please.Been practicing approaches with the maddog to Innsbruck and found the LOC/DME West one to have a very steep descent starting at D20.4 OEJ. I need to go down at about 1600 - 1800 fpm to be at 5000ft at ABSAM NDB and minimum speed with full 40 degrees flaps and gear down is 180 knots throughout the final descent in the localizer (OEJ R-067). Does that look about right or is there some flight dynamics limitation of FSX making it necessary to go down on full flaps and gear down? Is it ok to start the right turn at ABSAM, not right over it but a bit to the left, to have some more room to make the turn, or does the visual part need to start exactly at ABSAM?What happens if I can barely see the runway before RUM at 5000ft but then after the turn the visibility is not good enough to see the runway below that? I mean I saw the RW before DA, but I still need to turn around and see it from further away and lower. What would be the right thing to do to decide when to land and when to go around? Going around in poor visibility there is pretty scary LOL(picture removed)Thanks in advanced
Hi Dazz,I just flew it in the MD11. just raw data approach and handflying after AB NDB. It is indeed a steep approach. What you need to do is be at Vapp +15 at ABSAM NDB. because you only got 0.9nm for turning. What I did was starting to slow before the decent. For NPA approaches I've always been taught to be in landing config before the decent. This way you only have to deal with the approach and not also speed and config changes. (you can add the final stage of flap after the decent point).Basically I started to slow to 170kts before KTI NDB adding slats first then flap 15. Then at OEJ 20.7 I stated my decent from 11500 using FPA with -4,7degrees put in. Roll mode in LOC. Then you just check the altitudes on the way down to 5000feet where you'll level off. I put the gear down at about 9000feet and then flap 28. When at AB NDB you turn all the way around the 254degrees and begin a shallow decent to 3700feet. when abeam INN turn right by 10degrees. Now comes the hardest part. When at OEJ 14,1nm you turn right and it's a really tight turn. At the same time begin a 3 degree decent. (I used 30degrees of bank at 155kts and still overshot a little.)Have fun. it can be done!Regards,

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