Questions for the pilots and experienced simmers please.Been practicing approaches with the maddog to Innsbruck and found the LOC/DME West one to have a very steep descent starting at D20.4 OEJ. I need to go down at about 1600 - 1800 fpm to be at 5000ft at ABSAM NDB and minimum speed with full 40 degrees flaps and gear down is 180 knots throughout the final descent in the localizer (OEJ R-067). Does that look about right or is there some flight dynamics limitation of FSX making it necessary to go down on full flaps and gear down? Is it ok to start the right turn at ABSAM, not right over it but a bit to the left, to have some more room to make the turn, or does the visual part need to start exactly at ABSAM?What happens if I can barely see the runway before RUM at 5000ft but then after the turn the visibility is not good enough to see the runway below that? I mean I saw the RW before DA, but I still need to turn around and see it from further away and lower. What would be the right thing to do to decide when to land and when to go around? Going around in poor visibility there is pretty scary LOLThanks in advanced

Tricky approach indeed. I guess if you have to do a MA after the turn at ABSAM, you'll have to follow the MA procedure for the LOC DME EAST approach chart. There you do a sharp left turn at D1 before OEV LLZ to course 060 up to ABSAM. Then you continue the MA proc to RTT staying on the LLZ course. That's what I would do. Or you could use the Visual Approach procedure chart(s) as guidance where a circling pattern is drawn over the airport. This is probably the correct procedure.As for the turn to final, I think you need to turn exactly at AB. The visual app begins at the NDB.

Tricky approach indeed. I guess if you have to do a MA after the turn at ABSAM, you'll have to follow the MA procedure for the LOC DME EAST approach chart. There you do a sharp left turn at D1 before OEV LLZ to course 060 up to ABSAM. Then you continue the MA proc to RTT staying on the LLZ course. That's what I would do. Or you could use the Visual Approach procedure chart(s) as guidance where a circling pattern is drawn over the airport. This is probably the correct procedure.As for the turn to final, I think you need to turn exactly at AB. The visual app begins at the NDB.

Thank you Emil, that makes complete sense to use the East approach criteria for MA when landing on 26, and for runway 8, I guess if visibility is not good enough one shouldn't be trying a visual approach in the first place hehe.

The ABSAM beacon is the missed approach point, so that is the latest that you can (legally) make your decision to land or go missed. After that point you are flying visually, and it is up to you to remain clear of terrain and obstacles.The glidepath is steep, 4.7 degrees compared to the normal 3 degrees, so the Maddog will need some drag to keep the speed manageable. As I recall, my own attempts in the Maddog did not go so well :(

Would jets actually be cleared for that approach?Just wondering about the missed approach point as well. On a non-prescision approach you normally descend to MDA then go missed if you pass the MAPt before you see the runway or approach lights. Well for this approach, the runway's behind you, so how does that work?!

If you want to get more detailed informations about the procedures at LOWI, got to the Eurocontrol site, open a free account for EAD Basic and you have free access to all relevant data for all airports in Europe and especially for LOWI in this case.

Would jets actually be cleared for that approach?Just wondering about the missed approach point as well. On a non-prescision approach you normally descend to MDA then go missed if you pass the MAPt before you see the runway or approach lights. Well for this approach, the runway's behind you, so how does that work?!

Exactly, that's what got me thinking and hence my question :(

The ABSAM beacon is the missed approach point, so that is the latest that you can (legally) make your decision to land or go missed. After that point you are flying visually, and it is up to you to remain clear of terrain and obstacles.The glidepath is steep, 4.7 degrees compared to the normal 3 degrees, so the Maddog will need some drag to keep the speed manageable. As I recall, my own attempts in the Maddog did not go so well :(

I believe ABSAM is the MA point for the East approach, not the West one. Coming from the West ABSAM is well past the runway and if I got it right from the charts, the MA point is RUM at 5000ft some 2nm before ABSAM.And in the East approach, the MA point (ABSAM at 4470 ft) is further away from the RW than the DA points (3400, 3900 or 4400 ft depending on visibility) so does that mean that you can keep descending past the MA point ABSAM?I'm so confused :(

If you want to get more detailed informations about the procedures at LOWI, got to the Eurocontrol site, open a free account for EAD Basic and you have free access to all relevant data for all airports in Europe and especially for LOWI in this case.

thanks Otto, I'll do that right now B)

The ABSAM beacon is the missed approach point, so that is the latest that you can (legally) make your decision to land or go missed. After that point you are flying visually, and it is up to you to remain clear of terrain and obstacles.The glidepath is steep, 4.7 degrees compared to the normal 3 degrees, so the Maddog will need some drag to keep the speed manageable. As I recall, my own attempts in the Maddog did not go so well :(

Correction: yep, the Visual Approach Procedure clearly states that ABSAM is the MAP for the West app, so looks to me like you're completely right thereOk, I just tried the visual circuit to circle around and land on RW 08... that's completely insane! as you start to turn to base you are barely 300ft AGL and the GPWS goes nuts LOL, and then on final you find yourself over the valley and still quite high just 3 miles away from the runway. Do jets really fly that pattern or are they only allowed to land on 26?

Correction: yep, the Visual Approach Procedure clearly states that ABSAM is the MAP for the West app, so looks to me like you're completely right thereOk, I just tried the visual circuit to circle around and land on RW 08... that's completely insane! as you start to turn to base you are barely 300ft AGL and the GPWS goes nuts LOL, and then on final you find yourself over the valley and still quite high just 3 miles away from the runway. Do jets really fly that pattern or are they only allowed to land on 26?

Apparently they do. I got some LOWI charts specifically made for the 737, and all the charts are there; east, west, visual etc.rwy08 app:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKa9ILqgtS4&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DenurwQhnDc

Great vids, thanks

This isn't a runway aligned procedure. As such, you will need to turn and line up with the runway visually. On the chart, you will notice that the AB locator (Absam) is the last point on the vertical profile before it starts climbing again - this indicates that it is the missed approach point. From this point, you must execute the missed approach procedure if you are not visual. If you are visual, you must turn to the visual circuit to establish onto final.In this case, you would probably make a right turn onto downwind once you are visual. If you are getting GPWS warnings, you need to turn tighter (25 degree angle of bank, make sure you are not going too fast).CheersNick Jones

This isn't a runway aligned procedure. As such, you will need to turn and line up with the runway visually. On the chart, you will notice that the AB locator (Absam) is the last point on the vertical profile before it starts climbing again - this indicates that it is the missed approach point. From this point, you must execute the missed approach procedure if you are not visual. If you are visual, you must turn to the visual circuit to establish onto final.In this case, you would probably make a right turn onto downwind once you are visual. If you are getting GPWS warnings, you need to turn tighter (25 degree angle of bank, make sure you are not going too fast).CheersNick Jones

Yeah, I just came in to high and didn't do the turn tight enough so I got too close to the mountains and it was hard to line up with the runway. Thanks for the tips Nick

This isn't a runway aligned procedure. As such, you will need to turn and line up with the runway visually. On the chart, you will notice that the AB locator (Absam) is the last point on the vertical profile before it starts climbing again - this indicates that it is the missed approach point. From this point, you must execute the missed approach procedure if you are not visual. If you are visual, you must turn to the visual circuit to establish onto final.In this case, you would probably make a right turn onto downwind once you are visual. If you are getting GPWS warnings, you need to turn tighter (25 degree angle of bank, make sure you are not going too fast).CheersNick Jones

But visual with what?!

Would jets actually be cleared for that approach?

Yes.I did this in the LSH MD-82 when flying multi-crew and did it first time. 180 kts IAS is far too fast. You want to go down with Flap 15 and gear up, as slow as she'll go in that config. You must remember it is a high angle descent (I figure 2.75% gradient) requiring 1500 ft/min at 180 kts GS (approx. 150 kts IAS at 10000 ft). Use gear if necessary for additional drag (speed brakes are prohibited with flaps extended).Note that you ALSO require the Visual Landing chart, separately.

Is it ok to start the right turn at ABSAM, not right over it but a bit to the left, to have some more room to make the turn, or does the visual part need to start exactly at ABSAM?

In two words: ABSOLUTELY NOT! You can NOT make your own procedures. Your method would reduce terrain clearance, and you'd be asking for CFIT. Fly the procedure as published. If you can't fly the procedure, practice. If your aircraft can't meet the requirements, you can't fly it.Best regards,Robin.

But visual with what?!

I suggest consulting dictionary what 'visual' means.But on another subject the chart above is really very poorly done. The real pilots have a lot better chart for this approach.