Real World NGX Pilots how on earth do you remember all this

[FlyingBubbles 15]

'Could you guys with the real world experience shed some light on the terms "Short Turn" and "Long Turn" with your experience and operators. These are 'Saved Panel States' with absolutely zero explanation in the Intro and Use pdf. We can guess all day long, but it would be nice if we had a little info about how and when they are used and how they may relate to our simulator flying. It sure is nice of you guys to take to time to talk about these things in the forum. The developer has their hands full with the support requests and evidently don't have time to spoon feed the newbies. I guess some of the customers are still trying to get in the air or stay up with CTDs. Ray

Relating to my bush flying experience.... A short turn is a short turnaround time where you pretty much land, unload, re-load or refuel if necessary and take off again (so you keep all systems warm)... A long turn is the opposite, a long turnaround time where you go cold and dark... batteries off etc since you have the time to let things cool down. Relating to sim flying, a short turnaround has all the systems in a state in which it was previously left and can accumulate errors (such as the need to quick realign the IRS/INS system.) The long turn around would necessitate using the checklists from cold and dark and resetting all systems. MJ O'Donnell

[raymar 969]

Short turn is for a quick turnover at the airport. Ie, not many systems are switched off, only the minimum is turned off. Long turn is a long turnover, so more equipment is turned off, with only the minimum being left on. Try them both out and see the differences

Thanks, that was my guess based on the terms. What I was hoping for was what or what not is turned off or on and why. And how long in time is a typical Short Turn or Long Turn and when does the Short become the Long. And maybe even some discussion on which checklist is used or at what point in a specific checklist do you start or stop. That kinda stuff. Ray

[NGX 1]

Thanks, that was my guess based on the terms. What I was hoping for was what or what not is turned off or on and why. And how long in time is a typical Short Turn or Long Turn and when does the Short become the Long. And maybe even some discussion on which checklist is used or at what point the what checklist do you start or stop. That kinda stuff. Ray

Ahhh. Sorry I'm not sure about that depth.

[raymar 969]

Relating to my bush flying experience.... A short turn is a short turnaround time where you pretty much land, unload, re-load or refuel if necessary and take off again (so you keep all systems warm)... A long turn is the opposite, a long turnaround time where you go cold and dark... batteries off etc since you have the time to let things cool down. Relating to sim flying, a short turnaround has all the systems in a state in which it was previously left and can accumulate errors (such as the need to quick realign the IRS/INS system.) The long turn around would necessitate using the checklists from cold and dark and resetting all systems. MJ O'Donnell

Excellent response for me. Thanks. I wonder why we have the Long Turn and the Cold and Dark if they are the same? Ray

[FlyingBubbles 15]

This, this exactly how I've mastered my 747. It's been almost 2 years since I've been flying the queen, I've logged about a thousand hours in it. At first It was a checklist activity, but now I don't even use the lists anymore, everything is in there... (Of course, after a fairly long LOA I make a few check flights then it's back up to speed.)

And that's how one of my collegues managed to land a job flying TU-204's for a Russian airline. Funny story actually, the guy didn't speak a word of Russian and had fierce hatred for the Metric system but somehow still managed to get a job flying a Russian heavy. His secret, repetition of all SOP's and checklists, lots of dictionaries and sleeping with the boss.... :D MJ O'Donnell

[Airbus Commander 563]

'Could you guys with the real world experience shed some light on the terms "Short Turn" and "Long Turn" with your experience and operators. These are 'Saved Panel States' with absolutely zero explanation in the Intro and Use pdf. We can guess all day long, but it would be nice if we had a little info about how and when they are used and how they may relate to our simulator flying. It sure is nice of you guys to take the time to talk about these things in the forum. The developer must have their hands full with the support requests and evidently don't have time to spoon feed the newbies. I guess some of the customers are still trying to get in the air or stay up without CTDs. Ray

Long turn is the state you'd find the aircraft in when you arrive for the first flight of the morning.Short turn is the state the aircraft would be found in if you were doing a turnaround at an airport. Edit: Looks like I was beaten to it... Edited August 23, 2011 by Rónán O Cadhain

[Flexman 30]

'Could you guys with the real world experience shed some light on the terms "Short Turn" and "Long Turn" with your experience and operators. These are 'Saved Panel States' with absolutely zero explanation in the Intro and Use pdf. We can guess all day long, but it would be nice if we had a little info about how and when they are used and how they may relate to our simulator flying. It sure is nice of you guys to take the time to talk about these things in the forum. The developer must have their hands full with the support requests and evidently don't have time to spoon feed the newbies. I guess some of the customers are still trying to get in the air or stay up without CTDs. Ray

Those are mainly related to how you would find the airplane after it's been handed off to you. An airline pilot will rarely see a cold and dark cockpit. I have been looking at the difference in the systems state between those 2 panel settings and it looks like the "short" is more or less what you will find in a cockpit as the previous crew finished their flight. The "long" panel state is maybe what the first crew of the day would find when they reach an airplane which has been fiddled with by engineers. edit: 100 simultaeous answers i see.

[raymar 969]

Long turn is the state you'd find the aircraft in when you arrive for the first flight of the morning.Short turn is the state the aircraft would be found in if you were doing a turnaround at an airport. Edit: Looks like I was beaten to it...

So as earlier stated . . . is the cold and dark and Long Turn pretty much the same state for your airlines also? Thanks for the quick response. Ray

[Airbus Commander 563]

Excellent response for me. Thanks. I wonder why we have the Long Turn and the Cold and Dark if they are the same? Ray

They aren't the same, long turn still has most systems turned on, cold and dark really be done by the engineers after the last flight of the day...

[FlyingBubbles 15]

So as earlier stated . . . is the cold and dark and Long Turn pretty much the same state for your airlines also? Thanks for the quick response. Ray

Cold and Dark would be 'coming out of the hangar' and long turn would be flown but with systems off and colder than before from what I have seen... Although I have noticed in the Cold and Dark situation, the pitot heats are always left on, which I would assume should be off prior to establishing electrical power. Idk if that's a bug in the situation or just me.... MJ O'Donnell.

[raymar 969]

Those are mainly related to how you would find the airplane after it's been handed off to you. An airline pilot will rarely see a cold and dark cockpit. I have been looking at the difference in the systems state between those 2 panel settings and it looks like the "short" is more or less what you will find in a cockpit as the previous crew finished their flight. The "long" panel state is maybe what the first crew of the day would find when they reach an airplane which has been fiddled with by engineers. edit: 100 simultaeous answers i see.

Thanks. I guess we just have to spend some quality time comparing the different saved states. Sure would be nice to have some documentation. I suppose I should look at it like they spent the last three years building the wonderful model and the documentation will come when it comes. I found the same with the iFly version. Ray

[Airbus Commander 563]

So as earlier stated . . . is the cold and dark and Long Turn pretty much the same state for your airlines also? Thanks for the quick response. Ray

Okay, give me 30mins and I'll come back and explain it properly for you...

[Flexman 30]

During 6 years of working as cabin crew, I have only seen a cold and dark cockpit once. Most of the times you reach the airplane it it will be very warm, smelly, inbound crew with sleepy faces, lot's of people wearing religious outfits carrying crying babies, stories by the incoming crew about some passenger puking on seat 21B.... ... and there is always, ALWAYS, vacuum machines all over the place trying to kill you. Always.

Thanks. I guess we just have to spend some quality time comparing the different saved states. Sure would be nice to have some documentation. I suppose I should look at it like they spent the last three years building the wonderful model and the documentation will come when it comes. I found the same with the iFly version. Ray

Just look at the packs...

[raymar 969]

Okay, give me 30mins and I'll come back and explain it properly for you...

Take all day. I am actually working on the structure of a true beginners tutorial for this thing. That is why I keep digging for deeper thoughts. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to do this for me. Ray

During 6 years of working as cabin crew, I have only seen a cold and dark cockpit once. Most of the times you reach the airplane it it will be very warm, smelly, inbound crew with sleepy faces . . . .... and there is always, ALWAYS, vacuum machines all over the place trying to kill you. Always. Just look at the packs...

Wow. That is truly a revelation to the sim community. I wonder how many folks know how uncommon the Cold and Dark is? I bet one of those poll posters will have a poll up within the hour. Ray

[Flexman 30]

Take all day. I am actually working on the structure of a true beginners tutorial for this thing. That is why I keep digging for deeper thoughts. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to do this for me. Ray Wow. That is truly a revelation to the sim community. I wonder how many folks know how uncommon the Cold and Dark is? I bet one of those poll posters will have a poll up within the hour. Ray

In fact, im not sure your average airline pilot would know all that an airplane is done to to being brought from cold dark to fully operational. The CDU has so many pages that a pilot has never seen, you'd be surprised. That gets even funnier on 777s and most airbuses. I have seen the printer of an a340 print pages and pages of reports and complicated screens on the maintenance display. There is so much about the more electronic airplanes that even rated pilots don't know. I remember a time that we had a pretty hard touch down. Right after we left the active runway, the printer started spitting reports like no tomorrow. We were like, what the h**** this... I'm sure the operating crew had heard of the airplane doing that before, but they certainly never saw it happening on one of their flights. It was a report on the high G touchdown. It referenced regulations on what had to be revised before the airplane could take off again. This was in Sydney, and when the engineer arrived, he was like "oh, of course...". It all made sense to him. Sat down on the captain's seat and started trully navigating through pages and pages on the screens related to maintenance, and more and more printing, and phonecalls... It takes more than pilots to get these things to work.