Note, these comments affect the visual model, not the handling of the simulator which seems fine. It appears to me that lateral control movements are underdone, as are the corresponding EICAS indications. Ailerons In the aircraft these move +/- 20 degrees. In the sim the movement appears to be less than that, but of course it's impossible to measure accurately from the screen. Roll spoilers At full aileron deflection the roll spoilers don't appear to move as far as the aircraft. The EICAS control position display shows about 20% of max flight spoiler, they should show nearer 100%. Also roll spoiler movement begins as soon as the wheel moves from neutral. In reality the roll spoilers do not move until a few degrees of aileron has been applied, i.e. small movements are aileron only. Spoiler/Speedbrake mixing If the wheel is deflected with the speedbrakes extended out the roll spoilers should add to the speedbrake deflection. This happens correctly for the down going wing but on the up going wing the sim has the roll spoilers going to zero immediately. In reality, the reduction in spoiler deflection is proportional to wheel deflection. Speedbrakes in flight At the speedbrake flight detent the flight spoilers should be deflected 19.5 or 24.5 depending on the panel. The sim spoiler panels don't appear to move that much. Hydraulics OFF PMDG seem to have chosen to restrict control input to almost nothing to simulate hydraulics off. In reality the flight controls should be fully moveable, but will move slower due to the much higher control forces involved. (The 737's controls are power assisted, not fully powered). In checking hyds off in flight I noticed that the RED landing gear lights illuminated when pressure decayed. These lights should show gear position disagreement and if the gear remains locked up there's no reason why the red lights would come on if pressure is lost. Sorry to be picky, but with so much being done right by PMDG on the NGX, the few things that look wrong stand out. Kevin Hall

I noticed too, and posted in another topic.Also, check the STBY rudder, it won't work. I've simulated some stalls and with a force feedback joystick I've not experienced an increase of column feel if try to pitch up. Autoslat works only with GW set on FMC. But Alternate flaps seems to be correctly simulated. Need to check the other stby hyd users and PTU.

Note, these comments affect the visual model, not the handling of the simulator which seems fine. It appears to me that lateral control movements are underdone, as are the corresponding EICAS indications. Ailerons In the aircraft these move +/- 20 degrees. In the sim the movement appears to be less than that, but of course it's impossible to measure accurately from the screen. Roll spoilers At full aileron deflection the roll spoilers don't appear to move as far as the aircraft. The EICAS control position display shows about 20% of max flight spoiler, they should show nearer 100%. Also roll spoiler movement begins as soon as the wheel moves from neutral. In reality the roll spoilers do not move until a few degrees of aileron has been applied, i.e. small movements are aileron only. Spoiler/Speedbrake mixing If the wheel is deflected with the speedbrakes extended out the roll spoilers should add to the speedbrake deflection. This happens correctly for the down going wing but on the up going wing the sim has the roll spoilers going to zero immediately. In reality, the reduction in spoiler deflection is proportional to wheel deflection. Speedbrakes in flight At the speedbrake flight detent the flight spoilers should be deflected 19.5 or 24.5 depending on the panel. The sim spoiler panels don't appear to move that much. Hydraulics OFF PMDG seem to have chosen to restrict control input to almost nothing to simulate hydraulics off. In reality the flight controls should be fully moveable, but will move slower due to the much higher control forces involved. (The 737's controls are power assisted, not fully powered). In checking hyds off in flight I noticed that the RED landing gear lights illuminated when pressure decayed. These lights should show gear position disagreement and if the gear remains locked up there's no reason why the red lights would come on if pressure is lost. Sorry to be picky, but with so much being done right by PMDG on the NGX, the few things that look wrong stand out. Kevin Hall

+1 Especially Hydraulics OFF

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine control forces needed on the yoke for manual reversion would be extremely high, at least for my 145lb frame. Even the foot "stands" are still there in the NG cockpits for added yoke back pressure during manual reversion; Yes, they are there to put your feet on to "stand" and pull back on the yoke. I can also imagine that it's not only a hand full, but damn scary while landing in manual reversion (think bent up aircraft). I'll play with it more tonight. You've piqued my interest a little more than what it was in the first place. But you're rather wrong about flight controls during MR.

The control surfaces (except for rudder that is fully hydraulic) have a balance tab that helps pilots during manual reversion.

The control surfaces (except for rudder that is fully hydraulic) have a balance tab that helps pilots during manual reversion.

Right, but the forces needed are still high (regardless balance tabs or balance panels). So that leads us back to my original post. I wonder if any real NG drivers could provide input for these forums. In the mean time, try pprune.

Right, but the forces needed are still high (regardless balance tabs or balance panels). So that leads us back to my original post. I wonder if any real NG drivers could provide input for these forums. In the mean time, try pprune.

The forces are manageable (I've tried it myself in a 737-300 sim) and if necessary one pilot can help the other. The feel is very different because of the hysteresis introduced by the hydraulic servo valve (which now has no pressure to port). If you reverse the control input nothing happens until the servo valve has moved from one end stop to the other. So basically a lot of slack is introduced into the system and once you overcome that you hit the increased forces. Obviously there's no way PMDG could simulate this in FSX, but full control movement should be possible in manual mode. Kevin Hall

The forces are manageable (I've tried it myself in a 737-300 sim) and if necessary one pilot can help the other. The feel is very different because of the hysteresis introduced by the hydraulic servo valve (which now has no pressure to port). If you reverse the control input nothing happens until the servo valve has moved from one end stop to the other. So basically a lot of slack is introduced into the system and once you overcome that you hit the increased forces. Kevin Hall

Thanks Kevin. Some have commented that in the real a/c, forces needed are nearly unbearable. On the other hand, I hear some say it's not all that bad.

Thanks Kevin. Some have commented that in the real a/c, forces needed are nearly unbearable. On the other hand, I hear some say it's not all that bad.

I don't think it's much fun in real life, especially if there are other failures, adverse weather, etc. I've only tried it for a short time in a simulator. Kevin Hall

I tried it in the RW years ago on a -300 test flight. Trust me the controls are HEAVY with hydraulics off.

Ailerons In the aircraft these move +/- 20 degrees. In the sim the movement appears to be less than that, but of course it's impossible to measure accurately from the screen.

Downward movement is limited to 15 degrees, but I also feel the movement in the sim is very little (but as you say, hard to measure).

Hydraulics OFF PMDG seem to have chosen to restrict control input to almost nothing to simulate hydraulics off. In reality the flight controls should be fully moveable, but will move slower due to the much higher control forces involved. (The 737's controls are power assisted, not fully powered). In checking hyds off in flight I noticed that the RED landing gear lights illuminated when pressure decayed. These lights should show gear position disagreement and if the gear remains locked up there's no reason why the red lights would come on if pressure is lost.

Agree 100%. They said they had this cool "fly-by-software" system running in the background that processes hardware inputs before FSX, so they can do pretty much what they want with it. I'd also like to see slowly moving controls but at full control range, instead of this ridiculous two degree movement right now to simulate the sluggish controls during MR. Control movement during MR should be full in general, as you said. Taking about the ailerons for example, there will however be about three degrees of play until the ailerons would move. That means you need three additional degrees of control wheel movement until you hit mechanical stops at the PCU that would move its housing. Still, control range should not be limited. Some more things I just found: Control wheel movement range seems to be too small. It's limited to 107.5 degrees, in the NGX you can barely hit 45 I think. That implies that aileron trim is also too little, as it should be limited to 57 degrees, corresponding to 9.5 units. On the NGX I see about 20 degrees and 7.5 units maximum. Also I confirm your red gear lights under said conditions. Not sure why that is.

Sorry to be picky, but with so much being done right by PMDG on the NGX, the few things that look wrong stand out.

Again, totally agree. I also feel like nitpicking all the time (see above LOL), but then again it's simply the details that make this plane outstanding, and with us pointing out those that don't work yet as they should can only help to at least have a CHANCE of some of the things being adressed in a future update. I think it's only for the better.

Also, check the STBY rudder, it won't work. I've simulated some stalls and with a force feedback joystick I've not experienced an increase of column feel if try to pitch up.

Well standby rudder works for me...!? I also have a FF joystick, but I seriously doubt they could influence the control forces (unfortunately!). In fact they could, using DirectX maybe, but they apparently didn't. Also stick shaker doesn't come on when it comes on on the NGX (the custom sound), but it comes on when the "normal" FSX stall warning triggers. Usually at a much slower speed. Too bad, as the 737 really IS the plane that has the stick shaker, haha.

Right, but the forces needed are still high (regardless balance tabs or balance panels). So that leads us back to my original post. I wonder if any real NG drivers could provide input for these forums.

I can't say I tried this in flight or in a simulator, but just on the real thing on ground. I tend to vote for the 'very hard' opinions. In fact I can only imagine it would be even a lot harder in flight with the added control forces which obviously were absent on ground. Still we were two persons yanking at the controls, and I can only say dang it's hard.

Hi Kevin,With regards to the red landing gear lights, it also denotes an up lock failure if the gear handle is in the up position. This is most likely correct what you are seeing. Dinshaw Parakh.

Well standby rudder works for me...!?

Are you sure? I can see STBY RUDDER ON light, but rudder movement is exactly the same as on manual (HYD OFF) mode.

Are you sure?

No, and indeed, I stand corrected. Just checked and I remembered wrong. This is what I have (crosschecked outside model against lower DU SYS page): Any hyd pump operating - 100% travel.All systems off - ~10% travel.All systems off and ONE flight control switch to standby rudder - still ~10% travel (I believe this is what you mean)All systems off and BOTH flight control switches to standby rudder - ~80% travel Hmm, maybe I should recheck what the docs say. Bit lost off the top of my mind.

Only 1 switch on Stby position is sufficient to power the stby pump and drive the rudder for the entire travel of 29° left, and 29° right.Both switches is a non sense.WTRIS is the only system that interfaces with stby rudder for turn coordination while in manual reversion.I need to check the automatic activation:

The standby hydraulic pump automatically supplies pressure to the standby rudder PCU when these conditions are present:

• System A or system B low pressure
• Airplane is in the air or wheel speed greater than 60 knots
• TE flaps are not up.
• Either system A or system B flight control switches are ON

There is also the force fight monitor that is able to automatically turn on the stby rudder but this is hard to simulate.