Here is a scenario on how the real works:Piltos are landing, the lever is set to ARM.At touch down the actuator extends to deploy the speed brakes.Now, under 60kts the pilots move manually the lever back to down.The actuator is still armed. The pilot stops at the gate, but want to cycle the lever. He manually moves the lever to the extend position, then try to "accelerate" and the lever will automatically retract as noone retracted after landing.Now, the actuator is retracted, the pilot tries again, manually move the lever to the extend position.Now, the actuator is still in the retracted position and cannot move again to retract as it is already in that position.Advincing throttles will not cause the lever to go down. You need to do it manually or play with the plane circuit breakers, or take off and land, or RTO.In the pmdg is working not correctly as th "retracted" actuator is still able to retract more and more and more.... times without extending.

But why would a pilot extend the speed brakes and then accelerate?As far as I can tell, if you stow the speed brake lever in the off position itis no longer armed. At all.. Before takeoff, why would I arm the speed brakes?I arm the RTO with the auto braking system, but I leave the speed brake stowedin the off position.. Anyone here arm the speed brakes on takeoff?Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't.. :/Again, kind of like the autopilot issue, seems like cockpit error rather thanspeed brake error.. And even if there is some omission of an actuator function,I don't see how that would detract from it "acting" in a realistic manner whenusing the system.. It seems to work fine to me.Like others.. I'm confused as to the real issue.. :(

But why would a pilot extend the speed brakes and then accelerate?As far as I can tell, if you stow the speed brake lever in the off position itis no longer armed. At all.. Before takeoff, why would I arm the speed brakes?I arm the RTO with the auto braking system, but I leave the speed brake stowedin the off position.. Anyone here arm the speed brakes on takeoff?Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't.. :/Again, kind of like the autopilot issue, seems like cockpit error rather thanspeed brake error.. And even if there is some omission of an actuator function,I don't see how that would detract from it "acting" in a realistic manner whenusing the system.. It seems to work fine to me.Like others.. I'm confused as to the real issue.. :(

He's trying to pick out something pointless and irrelevant to realistic operations of the NG. Claiming he's worked 11 years on the Classic 737's is his only source, forgetting that this is a NG, not a classic. You're right. Arming the speedbrakes for takeoff is an airbus thing. Do it on a Boeing and you'll get the takeoff configuration warning.I think I'm finally understanding what he's saying. If you arm the spoilers, you land. They extend. When you increase throttle they retract automatically. But if you manually extend the spoilers, they don't retract when increasing throttle? That's correct on boeings though? They only retract with throttle if they were extended through the automatic extension on landing, and by that time, you're on the ground so you shouldn't even need to extend the spoilers again until you're in the air, which is done manually.

Di, I think you've got it, but I wouldn't say Andrea's points are pointless. The American 757 in Columbia probably would have cleared the mountain if they had retracted their speedbrake. Too bad Boeing didn't design it that way.

Yep, I'm pretty sure if you manually raise the brakes, they stay that way untilmanually retracted. The only automatic operation is upon touchdown..As far as I know.. Which ain't a heck of lot being I don't actually fly these in thereal world.. But hey! I flew to a Holiday Inn Express last night on the sim. :) And now that I see Spin737's post, that kinda further verifies if you manuallyraise em, they stay that way until manually retracted. But as far as the pilots operational point of view, I think the brakes in the NGXare working correctly vs real life. Close enough for me anyway..Myself, I prefer for them to stay up if that's where I have the handle.If I've got the speed brakes up, it's usually for a reason and I don't wantthem retracting on me until I stow the handle.

But why would a pilot extend the speed brakes and then accelerate?

It is important why? I can tell you Why not.

As far as I can tell, if you stow the speed brake lever in the off position itis no longer armed. At all.. Before takeoff, why would I arm the speed brakes?

ow told that you must arm? If you arm them for take off the TO config sounds, please read better what I write, and if I wrote tis thing, quote me.

I arm the RTO with the auto braking system, but I leave the speed brake stowedin the off position.. Anyone here arm the speed brakes on takeoff?Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't.. :/

Are you missing that is completely wrong. Autobrake can be OFF and spoilers will extend in the same way during an RTO as it is not linked to it. If you don't know, please don't post.

Again, kind of like the autopilot issue, seems like cockpit error rather thanspeed brake error.. And even if there is some omission of an actuator function,I don't see how that would detract from it "acting" in a realistic manner whenusing the system.. It seems to work fine to me. Like others.. I'm confused as to the real issue..

It seems to work for you, not for me. ;)

Di, I think you've got it, but I wouldn't say Andrea's points are pointless. The American 757 in Columbia probably would have cleared the mountain if they had retracted their speedbrake. Too bad Boeing didn't design it that way.

He's asking for PMDG to rewrite the animation/coding for the spoilers so if you manually raise them, increasing throttles will automatically lower them, which isn't even true to real life. As you said, if Boeing had this, that AA might have cleared the mountain.

It is important why? I can tell you Why not. ow told that you must arm? If you arm them for take off the TO config sounds, please read better what I write, and if I wrote tis thing, quote me. Are you missing that is completely wrong. Autobrake can be OFF and spoilers will extend in the same way during an RTO as it is not linked to it. If you don't know, please don't post. It seems to work for you, not for me. ;)

He was restating his final takeoff checks, Autobrake RTO, Spoilers stowed.

He's asking for PMDG to rewrite the animation/coding for the spoilers so if you manually raise them, increasing throttles will automatically lower them, which isn't even true to real life. As you said, if Boeing had this, that AA might have cleared the mountain.

Oh, I didn't see this in his post. I'll read it again. I think half if this thread is us not understanding that we're saying the same thing.

He's trying to pick out something pointless and irrelevant to realistic operations of the NG. Claiming he's worked 11 years on the Classic 737's is his only source, forgetting that this is a NG, not a classic.

Search EI-CXP (one of them) on Airliners or similar sites...

You're right. Arming the speedbrakes for takeoff is an airbus thing. Do it on a Boeing and you'll get the takeoff configuration warning.

I never told about arming on take off, PLEASE READ MY POSTS.

I think I'm finally understanding what he's saying. If you arm the spoilers, you land. They extend. When you increase throttle they retract automatically. But if you manually extend the spoilers, they don't retract when increasing throttle? That's correct on boeings though? They only retract with throttle if they were extended through the automatic extension on landing, and by that time, you're on the ground so you shouldn't even need to extend the spoilers again until you're in the air, which is done manually.

So if something is useless like IFE PASS, CAB UTILs, and lights why simulate them? It's right?I'm asking why the simulator lets you click on items that are not necessary on ground, in flight or wherever...It's a simulation of the real one? For this item Is not working like the real one, STOP!

737-6/7/8/9Maintenance Manual Part I

SPEEDBRAKE CONTROL SYSTEM - FUNCTIONAL DESCRIPTION - AUTO SPEEDBRAKE GeneralThe auto speedbrake module and the auto speedbrake relays control the automatic operation of the speedbrakes. The auto speedbrake module and the auto speedbrake relays use data from these sources:

• Speedbrake arming switch
• Speedbrake refused takeoff switch
• Autothrottle microswitch packs
• Antiskid/autobrake control unit
• Air/ground relays (2)
• Antiskid sense relays (2)
• Flight control computers (FCCs) (2)
• R/A < 10 feet relays (2).

LandingDuring landing, the auto speedbrake operates when all these conditions occur:

• The altitude is less than 10 feet from the flight control computers to the R/A < 10 ft relays,
• The main landing gear is on the ground or the main landing gear wheels spin up,
• The speedbrake lever is in the armed position,
• Both left and right thrust levers are at idle.

Before landing, the pilots arm the speedbrake lever. During the flare or at touchdown, the pilots move both thrust levers to idle. Just after touchdown, the auto speedbrake actuator fully extends the speedbrake lever. This commands all spoilers to move up.The auto speedbrake actuator retracts if either thrust lever is more than the idle position. NOTE: The auto speedbrake actuator does not retract when you move the speedbrake lever to the down position. Refused Takeoffs (RTO)During a RTO, when the pilot moves at least one of the thrust reverser levers, the speedbrake refused takeoff switch closes. This permits the auto speedbrake actuator to extend fully. This commands all spoilers to move up.The auto speedbrake actuator retracts if either thrust lever is more than the idle position. IndicationsThe auto speedbrake module controls the amber SPEEDBRAKE DO NOT ARM light and the green SPEEDBRAKE ARMED light. The auto speedbrake module also sends signals to the flight data aquisition unit for reporting purposes.See the flight data recording system (FDRS) section for more information about the FDAU. (SECTION 31-31)The SPEEDBRAKE DO NOT ARM light comes on when the automatic operation of the speedbrake system does not arm correctly. This occurs when the speedbrake lever is in the ARMED detent or either thrust lever is in reverse, and one of the these occurs:

• Antiskid system inoperative
• Auto speedbrake actuator not retracted
• Disagreement between the wheel spin speeds and air/ground signals
• Internal faults in the auto speedbrake module.

The SPEEDBRAKE ARMED light comes on when the automatic operation of the speedbrake system does arm correctly. This occurs when the speedbrake lever is in the ARMED detent or either thrust lever is in reverse, and all of these occur:

• One or more antiskid channel operates
• Auto speedbrake actuator retracted
• No disagree in the wheel spin speeds and air/ground signals.

The SPEEDBRAKE ARMED light also comes on when the auto speedbrake module sends a raise command to the auto speedbrake relays.There are four wheel spin-up lights on the auto speedbrake module face plate. The lights come on when the main landing gear wheels turn faster than 60 knots and either the speedbrake arming switch closes or the speedbrake refused takeoff switch closes. There is one light for each wheel.Two of the lights (DS3 and DS4) also come on for four seconds after the airplane goes from in the air to on the ground. §[Figure 1. SPEEDBRAKE CONTROL SYSTEM - FUNCTIONAL DESCRIPTION - AUTO SPEEDBRAKE]§

Are you missing that is completely wrong. Autobrake can be OFF and spoilers will extend in the same way during an RTO as it is not linked to it. If you don't know, please don't post.

Spoilers will deploy during RTO if the reversers are engaged. Edit: i didn't see your last post.

He's asking for PMDG to rewrite the animation/coding for the spoilers so if you manually raise them, increasing throttles will automatically lower them, which isn't even true to real life. As you said, if Boeing had this, that AA might have cleared the mountain.

Spoilers will not retract in flight (that is in flight detent) if you advanced the throttles, but i do recll that you get a warning if you do that. Spoilers will only retract on ground with throttle application from what i remember.

I still haven't a clue what he is talking about. Anybody care to explain clearly what the problem is?

Spoilers will deploy during RTO if the reversers are engaged. Spoilers will not retract in flight (that is in flight detent) if you advanced the throttles, but i do recll that you get a warning if you do that. Spoilers will only retract on ground with throttle application from what i remember.

This is correct.

On ground they will retract automatically only one time, to do a second time you must do an RTO (if you don't want to take off)

This is beyond moronic.. it's a flight simulator, shut up and fly the thing.

Wow... Now this is an interesting change of attitude. Before this bird was let out of its cage people ooh'ed and aah'ed for every yet so tiny detail they revealed would be modelled. Now if someone knowledgable finds something that clearly doesn't work as it should, people tell him to shut up and get along with it. I don't get it. And on a side note, the devs claim to have produced the most in-depth simulation ever, not to mention with 30K+ pages of docs behind, so they clearly need to take these reports serious IMHO and not dismiss them, as should other people. Of course there are many who will just check every tiny detail against the real docs, after all this hype this was to be expected and is just fair!

Searching wrong things is a good base for upgrades, for the next product, also for training purposes, as now you know that the lever will not stow automatically in all the situations.If we shut up, no fixes, no improvements [...]Because the NGX is the best plane for FSX it is normal to check its limit VS real one.

Well put.

I still haven't a clue what he is talking about. Anybody care to explain clearly what the problem is?

The 737 has an auto speedbrake actuator which can move the speedbrake lever in or out via a lost motion device. After landing and auto speedbrake extension, if you manually stow the speedbrake using the lever the auto speedbrake actuator remains extended. If you attempt to re-extend the speedbrake automatically (i.e. by pulling the thrust reverse levers up) the actuator is already in the extend position so nothing happens. If you do manually stow the lever it's best to remember to stow the actuator too by advancing a thrust lever. Similarly if you manually extend the speedbrake lever, the auto speedbrake actuator remains in the stow position, so cannot be used to automatically stow the speedbrake again. Essentially the position of the auto speedbrake actuator is not directly linked to the position of the speedbrake lever, they are linked by a lost motion device. If you manually move the lever the auto speedbrake actuator does not follow up. To keep things lined up, if you manually extend the speedbrake, maually stow it. If it auto extends, ensure it is auto stowed. This is different to other Boeings, of later original design i.e. the 747 onwards, where the auto speedbrake actuator follows up the lever position. Hope this helps explain, not confuse, the situation. If PMDG were able to model this subtlety in FSX all well and good, but if not it's a minor modelling limitation Kevin Hall.

Kevin.. At least now I can get an idea of what he was talking about.But it's still not really an issue to me I don't think, being as I think Iauto stow my spoilers almost by default after landing. I almost alwayshave to use a little throttle to complete the trek to the gate.And if I use them manually, I always stow them manually.I've never noticed any problems with speed brake operation so far. I have no problem with people noting things that aren't quite right,but the way he was trying to explain the issue was pretty hard tounderstand.Being as I've never had a problem with them working as they shouldbe, it's hard to see what the real issue is. I guess, the cure is toalways throttle up and release a tad after the spoilers retract..Something which I've never seemed to be able to avoid so far.. :/

Thanks Kevin, hope that these other words will clear all confusion.