Kevin.. At least now I can get an idea of what he was talking about.But it's still not really an issue to me I don't think, being as I think Iauto stow my spoilers almost by default after landing. I almost alwayshave to use a little throttle to complete the trek to the gate.

It is an issue, not important like CTD or freezes that other are seeing, but issues about a wrong logic.If I found it, probably other will find also, maybe that when taxing you do a test of the flight control and would check also the speed brakes, but advancing thrust wile doing that, spoilers will retract...It is a non sense to speak about this issue?Ok, if you think that, also please remove all the things related to the cabin pressurization or air conditioning as in the simulation are completely useless.If we have a sim, we want a simulation of the real one, as close to the real as possible, this includes those systems that in the simulation are useless like pressurization and also spoilers autodeploy.And, to correct this thing, is a lot easier than correct the wrong simulated flight controls in manual mode.

And if I use them manually, I always stow them manually. I've never noticed any problems with speed brake operation so far.

It is not a reason to tell that because you never found, it is not an issue.If so, also fligt controls unusable without pressure is not an issue... but the NGX will crash...

I have no problem with people noting things that aren't quite right,but the way he was trying to explain the issue was pretty hard tounderstand.

Probably for language problems, sorry, I'm not English.But I did a step by step scenario wic illustrate how it really work, and people attacked me...What I think?Pilots are Gods for most, technician or other people working around a plane are nothing.Examples?ow many posts starts with " I need a pilot..." "Pilots can..." Only pilots, and the other?

Being as I've never had a problem with them working as they shouldbe, it's hard to see what the real issue is. I guess, the cure is toalways throttle up and release a tad after the spoilers retract..Something which I've never seemed to be able to avoid so far.. :/

Trust me, here, real pilots after landing will often arrive at the gate and the lever is still armed.For technicians it wolud be very dangerous if someone is checking for example a spoiler hydraulic piston, You put the lever in the Up position, The mechanic is under the panel searching for a leak (example) and someone touch the throttles... if lever is still armed it will stow the spoilers, with the head of the technician.The death of a technician is not simulated, also passenger/pilots death are not simulated, but for a strange reason in the NGX the air conditioning is really close to the real one, the auto spoilers not and are not important things for most.It is more important that the cabin temperature reaches the 24°C as selected on the panel? Does someone really feels it?It's a simulation? Yes, also the spoilers are simualtion. ;)

Probably for language problems, sorry, I'm not English.But I did a step by step scenario wic illustrate how it really work, and people attacked me...What I think?Pilots are Gods for most, technician or other people working around a plane are nothing.Examples?ow many posts starts with " I need a pilot..." "Pilots can..." Only pilots, and the other?

Technicians are nothing!!!!??? Without the technicians the airplane does not fly. They keep the airplane flying. with all do respect the Pilots are just flying the airplane from A to B and sometimes to C and back. and most of the time's without any problems. If there are problems during the flight first they try to correct the problem, if unsuccesful they contact maintenance, when the airplane lands and arrive at the gate, Who is there to fix the problem the technician.!!!. A pilot may perform a Platform check (P-check) when at outstation's and sign the Airplane Technical Log that the airplane is fit to fly. If not they need to contact maintenance. The are not allot the correct the problem when the airplane is still on the ground. This is how it work's in Europe.

Technicians are nothing!!!!??? Without the technicians the airplane does not fly. They keep the airplane flying. with all do respect the Pilots are just flying the airplane from A to B and sometimes to C and back. and most of the time's without any problems. If there are problems during the flight first they try to correct the problem, if unsuccesful they contact maintenance, when the airplane lands and arrive at the gate, Who is there to fix the problem the technician.!!!. A pilot may perform a Platform check (P-check) when at outstation's and sign the Airplane Technical Log that the airplane is fit to fly. If not they need to contact maintenance. The are not allot the correct the problem when the airplane is still on the ground. This is how it work's in Europe.

This is how works in the world, but check messages in the various forums, people only know pilots, technicians? Who are they? If a technician speaks, is him telling the thruth? We must wait a pilot answer!

Searching wrong things is a good base for upgrades, for the next product, also for training purposes, as now you know that the lever will not stow automatically in all the situations.If we shut up, no fixes, no improvements and no newer version of a product can be produced as the actual one (or the past one) is good enaught to fly in the sim.Because the NGX is the best plane for FSX it is normal to check its limit VS real one. Some are useless things, other, like no flight control operational when no hydraulics wich lead to a crash, are things that can be fixed.

if the speedbrakes are retracted that means the lever is set to up. If they are down, that means the lever is set to down. on the ground advancing the throttles retracts the speedbrakes. Why would the pilots rextend the speedbrakes after landing? in you rhypothetical situation above? Second if they did extend them, that would mean the manually pulled the lever to up, in which case they could restow the speedbrakes by moving the lever to down. enough said. done. can we lock this post already????!!!! Mitch Bowman

And if someone pulled the lever and forgot to restow it?It is better tat a wrong system corrects his error?So, why if you leave packs OFF they remains off in flight?Only because a real pilot will not forget thanks to the sounds???People opened topics about wrong cabin temperature, people opened topics regarding "strange sounds" wen landing, taking off, or climbing, people asked for a correction of the window transparency and so on...Noone asked for an important thing like the flight controls locked if hyd are lost... few asked for a correction of the fuel scavenge that in some circumstances creates dangerous imbalance to the plane.But this is not a bug because is not written on a checklist.Why exiting from the logic "monkey see, monkey do?There are a lot of people pushing like robots a switch after another, but without knowing what they are doing, for some users is sufficient, and because it is the same for you, the only things that are important are the things in the checklist. Why PMDG simulated other logics that normally noone will use is a mistery. A waste of time I assume if user logic is this.

I think a lot of people here, in these forums, are misinterpreting posts because English is not their native language and some read too fast without actually understanding what the poster means. I'm guilty of this behaviour too...Mitch, either I read it wrong, or you read it wrong, but I understand something totally different from the same post. I'll try to make a brief summary of what I understood:The actuator that moves the speedbrake handle is armed before landing.At touchdown, the speedbrakes go up, the actuator extends.If the speedbrakes are stowed manually, the actuator does NOT follow the handle, and is still in the extended position (armed to retract). If, during the rest of the "flight" (taxi to the stand and shutdown), the throttles are not advanced far enough, the actuator is still extended, and ready to retract.Now, at this moment the aircraft is shutdown. Say, hypothetically, there is a leak in one of the actuators for the spoilers. The mechanic moves the spoilers up by moving the handle, perhaps not realising the actuator that moves the handle is still extended and armed.While he is working on the wing in question, somebody advances the throttles, the result? You'll have a mechanic that can easily walk underneath the NG.Now, I think there would be some sort of procedure to counter these accident. It might be common practice to move the throttle levers forward after engine shutdown, or there might be a pin which blocks the actuators or valves. However, in the real plane you can create a state in which you can not retract the spoilers by simply advancing the throttles. In the NGX, you can NOT do this.This is what I think happens in real life verus the sim, I might be seeing it the wrong way though.Is this issue pressing? To me, no, considering there are still people out there with CTD's and activation issues. But the logic behind this is to me a lot more important than the pressurisation system, at least in a sim.

I never told that must be fixed or that is more important than CTD, only that "there is a problem with speedbrake logic", that is a fact, and not an opinion. There are others in the plane, most important more than this, other with same level of this one.But, as this issue I think needs only few minutes/hours to fix (in flight seems to work correctly as it seems to works correctly if you arm the lever on ground) I think it is important that someone explain the issues. Important or not, pmdg is capable to select what to fix and what not.

I wasn't stating this topic is useless, far from ;-) Just trying to explain in depth what is "wrong".

This has been a real interesting read and Andrea is the real deal when it comes to the technical and maintenance side of things people. I truly believe Andrea is not trying to play "i've read the most books" or "i'm the hottest S*** 737 mechanic out there" game. I think the speedbrake logic-fault we've found here is an interesting little bit. These discussions aren't so much about "OMZZGHHH PMdG u;Se got it WronXXGZzz" as more of an exploration of the operation and technical details found in this type of aircraft. I mentioned it before a month or two ago...but aircraft mechanics and such can now get excited about these things regarding flight simulation. We finally have an aircraft that we can relate with (Majestic Dash is pretty good in this respect as well). Systems and checks we work with/perform on the ground can now are much more copacetic with the what we are seeing in the flight simulation. Things that the NGX has modeled like correct electrical draws/hydraulic/pneumatic operations is all stuff that as an engineer/technician (whatever you call yourself) has to think about and is educated on. The pilot is not the end-all stop in terms of what is required to operate an aircraft. Neither is the AME. Even the rampy has things to offer. The pilot is just a single member of a dedicated team in operations, human resources, training, maintenance, cabin crew, airport staff, fuelers...everything...they are all an important aspect of the equation which makes an aircraft fly and ultimately...makes an operation make money. They all have their responsibilities...the pilot flies the plane, the AME fixes it, the fueler fuels it, the poor gate attendant shoe-horn's all those pesky passengers...but they all share the same objective - making it safe. Just because the rampy isn't flying the plane does not mean he can kill everyone onboard that aircraft...everybody involved has every chance to really screw things up. Yes, PMDG's NGX has some faults...and if this was your typical FSX add-on we've toyed with in the past then yes...it would be easy to dismiss simple things like this...but we have been presented with an outstanding simulation that bridges that gap from having fun and being simple enthusiasts to something we all can broaden our skills and knowledge with.

Noone asked for an important thing like the flight controls locked if hyd are lost... few asked for a correction of the fuel scavenge that in some circumstances creates dangerous imbalance to the plane.

I was under the assumption that:1. The 737 is one of the largest planes that can still be controlled during a total loss of hydraulic pressure (ok... not as easy as normal, but still under some control).2. The scavenger pump is simulated. Or are you saying that it isn't simulated properly? I actually don't know the exact behavior of it.

Check another post, it doesn't work on ground, and inflight it will transfer more fuel than it must do. On the real one the fuel scavenge system is fully mechanical (no air ground logic) and when it starts to work its rate is very low. On the sim, in few minutes I got my number 1 tank fuel increasing with center tank pumps off and both engines running. (xfeed closed). In few minutes you will have dangerous unbalance. Try it, maybe a bug for few users.Pre setup:Fuel on the wing must not be full, fuel on ctr tank less than 1000.Put fuel pumps on for the wings.Now, the scavenge must start on ground, it needs only the FWD pump, but all will be needed for engine start.Now, to check if it's working, go to the fuel page in the FS action menu in the CDU, it will tell us the exact fuel quantity.If you are running apu wing 1 is going slowly down, center tank qty is the same of beginning.Start the engines, fuel on wings will change due to fuel flow, center is still the same, now take off.On the lift off the scavenge initiate to work, its rate is sufficient to overcome the engine feed as the quantity in the main 1 tank is increasing while on 2 tank is continuing to descend. Few minutes and dang, over 300kgs of unbalance.Inthe real one the rate is far below 100kg in half hour.The scavenge is used to remove the remaining fuel in the center tank when low pressure come on. Low pressure itself doesn't come on at 0kgs.

About the first point, try to control the ngx without pressure. Flight control movements are limited to a very low value, maybe 10%?stby rudder on and off makes no difference, The stab trim is useful untill electrical systems are avaiable, but in case of a total loss of elec and hyd power (like with a fuel contamination) you will hard take the plane in flight.If pmdg did it to simulate how hard is to control the plane in this condition I don't know, but on the real one the control surfaces (except for rudder if stby rudder is not running) have full functionality, hardly to move, but they are in 2 inside the cockpit.Yesterday I tried again shutting down the engines, when engines gone offline, I seen gradual degradation of flight control usage, then the plane started to pitch, I tried to manually overcome with elevator and with manual trim (in VC is difficult, very difficult) the airplane started to decrease descend rate, but in few seconds started a climb. Then a descend, speed up, and climb... this a lot of time, then I successful stabilized the plane only at few hundred feets from ground.I can suppose that making it hard to control can be a pmdg choice (as for the manual trim that is a pmdg good choice) but it is nearly impossible to fly in these conditions.