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Robert McDonald

CTD's even after FSUIPC update - possible fix shared here

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For some reason, I suddenly started having CTDs (Crash to Desktop) during assorted FSX flight sessions. I thought I had discovered a cause - having Flight Sim Commander running weather as well as REX 2.0 OD doing real-time weather at the same time. However today, I had FSCommander off and it crashed.As a registered FSUIPC user, I naturally downloaded the latest DLL library and copied it to the FSUIPC folder. Unfortunately, that did not completely eliminate my CTD issue.Got a CTD this morning while I had FSX simulation speed running at 8x on PMDG 737ngx flight from Groton CT to JFK New York. I don't always use the speed-up function in FSX, but I was going to be unable to finish the flight if I ran it at "normal" speed. Bingo- I get the crash when I switched back down from 8x to normal sim rate.I am aware of the UIAutomationCore.DLL fix and had performed that long ago when I first installed FSX, so I knew the problem most-likely lay elsewhere, and having already updated FSUIPC - I had no clue what else to try, so I dug into the crash log to try to discover what modules were involved. Of course FSX itself was running, so it was listed int the crash log report - then another DLL was mentioned.I used the System Event Log to troubleshoot and locate the file that was involved in the crash, and the offender was shown (after googling it) to be a part of Microsoft's C++ runtime library files. So I then went to programs & features to look at the C++ runtimes that were installed, and discovered to my dismay that there several different 'versions' of C++ runtimes, and there were several different iterations (file dates) within those.Simply put, I believed there were WAY TOO MANY C++ runtime files - AFAIK you should only need 1 of each year for 2005/2008/2010. In theory, the 2010 version should be backward compatible with 2005 and 2008, possibly the system would operate with ONLY the 2010 runtime but I didn't take the chance.What I had prior to cleaning out the excess versions:C++ 2005 Runtimesx86 version << didn't think that belonged on a 64-bit version of Win 7 (removed)x64 versions (3 or 4 listed - picked the highest version number and removed all the older ones)x older version number (deleted) y older different version number (deleted)z newest version number (KEPT) x64C++ 2008 Runtimesx64 versions (3 or 4 listed - picked the highest version number and removed all the older ones) w older version (deleted) x older version (deleted) y older version (deleted)z newest version number (KEPT) x64C++ 2010 Runtimes (added by me) x64w current version (KEPT)Since I run Windows 7 --64 bit -- The proper C++ runtime libraries for me needed to be x64 NOT x86 (x86 is 32-bit) If you run 32-bit Windows or Vista, you would keep x86 versions NOT x64.So I found 1 instance of 32-bit C++ 2005 and removed it completely.I removed all but the latest (highest file number sequence) of Versions 2005 and 2008, and then I searched Microsoft and downloaded the 2010 version (x64) as well.So now I have only ONE version EACH of C++ 2005 / C++ 2008 and C++2010 on my system [All are x64]. (Looking at Programs and Features within Control Panel in Win7)I repeated the flight, and cautiously optimistic that the crash problem -- may -- possibly be gone. (It didn't crash again on the same flight plan running 8x sim speed)Elected to share this discovery with others here on Avsim.WARNING: If you're 'new' to PC's you may not have implemented a strong backup schema using a product like Acronis System Image or Windows 7 Built-in Backup. It's always wise to have a full system image (backup) of your machine BEFORE you make any changes (such as I am speaking of here).Of course once you do backups, you also need to know how to RESTORE your machine via those backups. Given the fact that hard disk drives are not bulletproof, you will greatly benefit from instituting a regular scheme designed to re-image your system to an external hard drive (e.g. USB External, eSata External or even in the cloud.Windows System Restore is not the same as restoring from backup - I'm sure there are tutorials on YouTube to cover this topic. Just want to caution everyone to backup their entire system prior to making changes. Worst case scenario: You make changes that later prove to either "not work as expected" or somehow cause problems ranging from low-grade to severe. That's when you pull your Rescue Boot CD out and plug in the external backup drive and "put everything back as it was".For those who already know this topic, I apologize. For those who didn't know about it - in the strongest possible terms it is suggested you undertake the backup advice....Hoping this works I will report back after further testing.Backup!


 R. Scott McDonald  B738/L   Information is anecdotal only-without guarantee & user assumes all risks of use thereof.                                               

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Guest firehawk44
For some reason, I suddenly started having CTDs (Crash to Desktop) during assorted FSX flight sessions.As a registered FSUIPC user, I naturally downloaded the latest DLL library and copied it to the FSUIPC folder. Unfortunately, that did not completely eliminate my CTD issue.Got a CTD this morning while I had FSX simulation speed running at 8x on PMDG 737ngx flight from Groton CT to JFK New York. I don't always use the speed-up function in FSX, but I was going to be unable to finish the flight if I ran it at "normal" speed. Bingo- I get the crash when I switched back down from 8x to normal sim rate.I am aware of the UIAutomationCore.DLL fix and had performed that long ago when I first installed FSX, so I knew the problem most-likely lay elsewhere, and having already updated FSUIPC - I had no clue what else to try, so I dug into the crash log to try to discover what modules were involved. Of course FSX itself was running, so it was listed int the crash log report - then another DLL was mentioned.I used the System Event Log to troubleshoot and locate the file that was involved in the crash, and the offender was shown (after googling it) to be a part of Microsoft's C++ runtime library files. So I then went to programs & features to look at the C++ runtimes that were installed, and discovered to my dismay that there several different 'versions' of C++ runtimes, and there were several different iterations (file dates) within those.Simply put, I believed there were WAY TOO MANY C++ runtime filesC++ 2005 Runtimesx86 version << didn't think that belonged on a 64-bit version of Win 7 (removed)x64 versions (3 or 4 listed - picked the highest version number and removed all the older ones)x version numbery different version numberz different version numberC++ 2008 Runtimesx64 versionswxyzC++ 2010 Runtimes (added by me)wSince I run Windows 7 --64 bit -- The proper C++ runtime libraries for me needed to be x64 NOT x86 (x86 is 32-bit)So I found 1 instance of 32-bit C++ 2005 and removed it completely.I removed all but the latest (highest file number sequence) of Versions 2005 and 2008, and then I searched Microsoft and downloaded the 2010 version (x64) as well.So now I have only ONE version EACH of C++ 2005 / C++ 2008 and C++2010 on my system [All are x64]. (Looking at Programs and Features within Control Panel in Win7)I repeated the flight, and cautiously optimistic that the crash problem -- may -- possibly be gone. (It didn't crash again on the same flight plan running 8x sim speed)Elected to share this discovery with others here on Avsim.WARNING: If you're 'new' to PC's you may not have implemented a strong backup schema using a product like Acronis System Image or Windows 7 Built-in Backup. It's always wise to have a full system image (backup) of your machine BEFORE you make any changes (such as I am speaking of here).Of course once you do backups, you also need to know how to RESTORE your machine via those backups. Given the fact that hard disk drives are not bulletproof, you will greatly benefit from instituting a regular scheme designed to re-image your system to an external hard drive (e.g. USB External, eSata External or even in the cloud.Windows System Restore is not the same as restoring from backup - I'm sure there are tutorials on YouTube to cover this topic. Just want to caution everyone to backup their entire system prior to making changes. Worst case scenario: You make changes that later prove to either "not work as expected" or somehow cause problems ranging from low-grade to severe. That's when you pull your Rescue Boot CD out and plug in the external backup drive and "put everything back as it was".For those who already know this topic, I apologize. For those who didn't know about it - in the strongest possible terms it is suggested you undertake the backup advice....Hoping this works I will report back after further testing.Backup!
I think you were just lucky. I would not do it as FSX is a very old program and used some of those old C++ programs to properly install FSX. Some addon's use them too to make sure things are properly installed. In any case, the fact they were already installed would not affect current FSX operations/CTD's. They are used by a developer to properly install their product. Not to worry though as most developers add the proper Microsoft Visual C++ Redistributable program if it cannot be found on your system before they install their software. The FSUIPC.dll does not halt all CTD's and Pete has stated this several times. If the Event Viewer states the crash was caused by the G3d.dll, then you need to let Pete know the Fault Offset so he can add it to future versions. Post the info in the g3d threat in the FSX Forum and he may make the fix but it is not guaranteed as he has many other things he is doing. The FSUIPC does not stop ntdl.dll CTD's or other CTD's -- not yet anyway. BTW, all of the MSV's from 2005 to the present time are constantly updated through the system update program. You also need to keep Microsoft .net up to date too.Best regards,Jim

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I think you were just lucky. I would not do it as FSX is a very old program and used some of those old C++ programs to properly install FSX. Some addon's use them too to make sure things are properly installed. In any case, the fact they were already installed would not affect current FSX operations/CTD's. They are used by a developer to properly install their product. Not to worry though as most developers add the proper Microsoft Visual C++ Redistributable program if it cannot be found on your system before they install their software. The FSUIPC.dll does not halt all CTD's and Pete has stated this several times. If the Event Viewer states the crash was caused by the G3d.dll, then you need to let Pete know the Fault Offset so he can add it to future versions. Post the info in the g3d threat in the FSX Forum and he may make the fix but it is not guaranteed as he has many other things he is doing. The FSUIPC does not stop ntdl.dll CTD's or other CTD's -- not yet anyway. BTW, all of the MSV's from 2005 to the present time are constantly updated through the system update program. You also need to keep Microsoft .net up to date too.Best regards,Jim
Thanks Jim. I am a software developer and an IT support manager as well, I am aware of where all of those runtimes came from (add-ons). What ticks me off is sloppy installers that just keep piling up software one atop the other (runtime libraries). Proper coding would just put newer ones on and leave it alone (undisturbed) if it (the MSI installation package) encountered a newer version already on a system. Clearly this did not happen, else I would not have had all the clutter. My 'best guess' is that the 2010 package I put on brought all the DLL's up to currency and that might stop the crashing. I can tell you that based on the event log, the suspect DLL was listed as a C++ component for sure.You're right about .Net. I think .Net 4 is the latest iteration.Regards,

 R. Scott McDonald  B738/L   Information is anecdotal only-without guarantee & user assumes all risks of use thereof.                                               

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Guest firehawk44
Thanks Jim. I am a software developer and an IT support manager as well, I am aware of where all of those runtimes came from (add-ons). What ticks me off is sloppy installers that just keep piling up software one atop the other (runtime libraries). Proper coding would just put newer ones on and leave it alone (undisturbed) if it (the MSI installation package) encountered a newer version already on a system. Clearly this did not happen, else I would not have had all the clutter. My 'best guess' is that the 2010 package I put on brought all the DLL's up to currency and that might stop the crashing. I can tell you that based on the event log, the suspect DLL was listed as a C++ component for sure.You're right about .Net. I think .Net 4 is the latest iteration.Regards,
According to Microsoft techs, never ever uninstall a MSV C++ Redistributable: http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_vista-windows_programs/different-versions-and-updates-of-microsoft-visual/d966bde7-4396-4d14-ab3d-04f0924a99f6. The redistributable is needed when running programs developed using MS VC++ 2005 and there are dependencies on certain DLL files (installed by the distributable) in those programs. The 2010 redistributables are not backward capable. As I stated, Microsoft is a very old program and there are many addons that were developed even before FSX so, if you are looking for trouble, uninstall them. Do as I did.... Google "do I need all the Microsoft C++ redistributables" and you will find even more info on this subject. When and if Microsoft Flight is released and you do not use any old FSX addon with it, then I agree, get rid of them. But, be careful as other software programs, like Family History Maker, Quicken, etc., use these redistributables.When FSX crashes, you need to let us know what was the offending module through the system event viewer. You can also Google the CTD by googling, for instance, 'ntdl.dll ctd fsx". You will then receive suggestions for fixing this error throughout the FS community and not just here at AVSIM (although I think it is the best Source).Microsoft .net 4 was installed with Windows 7 as part of the Windows installation. It should be kept up-to-date and never uninstalled. Individuals who have Windows Vista or below should install Microsoft .net 4 and maybe even previous versions as required by the developer of the addon. Most developers will include the appropriate version and install it automatically if it is not installed already. Hope this helps.Best regards,Jim

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Thanks for taking the time to set me straight on what MS techs suggest. I have a full system image of my PC before I uninstalled the extraneous stuff. I will retain that as read-only file until I've exhaustively tested my system for a lengthy period. I would still think that as long as I have 2005/2008/2010 C++ runtimes (latest/greatest including service packs) I should be fine. I know what MS said. I also know that if this indeed solves my issue - SOMETHING was wrong. Like most tech support, what others have discovered often (but not always) provides some relief. Thank the good Lord for Google.


 R. Scott McDonald  B738/L   Information is anecdotal only-without guarantee & user assumes all risks of use thereof.                                               

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Guest firehawk44
Thank the good Lord for Google.
Totally agree. Bing does a good job too. I learned something from your post and the research too. Thanks.Best regards,Jim

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Totally agree. Bing does a good job too. I learned something from your post and the research too. Thanks.Best regards,Jim
And to you, thanks as well, Jim. I learned something from your hard work and research today! So far, so good on my system. Another crash-free flight. I plan to load up 'everything I can think of' and take a 2 hour flight. We'll see what happens...Cheers!Robert

 R. Scott McDonald  B738/L   Information is anecdotal only-without guarantee & user assumes all risks of use thereof.                                               

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soI just want to make to sure about this if I have windows 7 64 bit do I need x86 or x64 to download since I have both of them listed in my control panel ?

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Use x64 for 64-bit Windows installations. I removed all the x86 versions from my system. Runs great, NO MORE CTD's.Remember: Perform a complete full-system image backup before making changes such as we're discussing. Always wise to have a fall-back in case of unexpected results, yeah?Robert.


 R. Scott McDonald  B738/L   Information is anecdotal only-without guarantee & user assumes all risks of use thereof.                                               

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so thus i should delete on my system the x86 and just keep x64 right ?????? because I as this you know Nick if I recall he mentioned for windwos 7 64bit you should have x86 bit confused here. thus you haere differenct anwser and rsm apppreciate your advise greeatly maybecome someone else might want to domment on this have windows 7 64 bit which one do you need ?

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Guest firehawk44
so thus i should delete on my system the x86 and just keep x64 right ?????? because I as this you know Nick if I recall he mentioned for windwos 7 64bit you should have x86 bit confused here. thus you haere differenct anwser and rsm apppreciate your advise greeatly maybecome someone else might want to domment on this have windows 7 64 bit which one do you need ?
On my system, someone (not me) installed both the x86 and the x64 versions. I have always had Windows 7 64 bit installed. So, the addons are installing both versions and/or Windows Update is installing them. According to the following link, if you have a 64 bit system, you should have both versions installed - http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_update/multiple-visual-c-redistributables-needed/e533cd40-8712-4803-8a31-316c83a5bc88?msgId=5133ca32-0e15-4ef2-b440-6c95f6f8d19c&tab=AllReplies.Best regards,Jim

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so be it will have both since sme pograms from developers need them to run fsx thanks once again everybody Ronny

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Well, I have a hard time imagining how a 64-bit system could absolutely require the 32-bit runtimes... the 64-bit runtimes should provide full compatibility for 32-bit apps running in a 64-bit operating environment, yeah? I know firehawk says no, and points to a Microsoft post on this subject, which clearly is "from the horse's mouth". I can only tell you my system runs strong and solid with 64-bit versions "ONLY" - but I'm not ADVOCATING anyone else try that. I'm just sharing one person's experience, and I clearly don't own every bit of software on the planet, so again, things could vary from my system to yours. All I can say is the CTD's are a dim memory for me since I did this. A person experiencing unexplained crashes to the desktop (as I was) might start grasping at straws trying to get the flight sim to run solidly. Again, as always, full backups and knowing how to restore to one of those... is good practice, yeah?


 R. Scott McDonald  B738/L   Information is anecdotal only-without guarantee & user assumes all risks of use thereof.                                               

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Guest firehawk44
Well, I have a hard time imagining how a 64-bit system could absolutely require the 32-bit runtimes... the 64-bit runtimes should provide full compatibility for 32-bit apps running in a 64-bit operating environment, yeah? I know firehawk says no, and points to a Microsoft post on this subject, which clearly is "from the horse's mouth". I can only tell you my system runs strong and solid with 64-bit versions "ONLY" - but I'm not ADVOCATING anyone else try that. I'm just sharing one person's experience, and I clearly don't own every bit of software on the planet, so again, things could vary from my system to yours. All I can say is the CTD's are a dim memory for me since I did this. A person experiencing unexplained crashes to the desktop (as I was) might start grasping at straws trying to get the flight sim to run solidly. Again, as always, full backups and knowing how to restore to one of those... is good practice, yeah?
Well stated Robert! Hopefully you will post here if you have a problem in the future with any addon. The chances are probably slim but FSX is a 32 bit program in a 64 bit environment. I tend to agree with you that only the 64 bit versions are required but some technology can be complicated. In most instances, a developer who releases an addon, will install the appropriate MSV if it is required for proper installation. Best regards,Jim

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Well stated Robert! Hopefully you will post here if you have a problem in the future with any addon. The chances are probably slim but FSX is a 32 bit program in a 64 bit environment. I tend to agree with you that only the 64 bit versions are required but some technology can be complicated. In most instances, a developer who releases an addon, will install the appropriate MSV if it is required for proper installation.Best regards,Jim
Yes, I know that FSX is 32-bit, as most machines sold 6 years ago were running 32-bit Operating Systems. Of course today, you have to majorly struggle to buy a 32-bit box, or else put a Win7 64 bit system into XP Emulation Mode. Having worked as a software developer I can tell you some fascinating stories about software packaging tools (e.g. "InstallShield"). One phenomenon is that the packaging tool decides from looking at your code what runtimes are "needed". Sometimes this in accurate, but many times there are lots of things 'thrown in', either by the developer (on accident) or else someone just wasn't paying attention when the product got converted into a SETUP.EXE file. I can tell you that for my own part there were times when some DLL's got tossed onto the end user system by InstallShield that were not "do or die" necessary, but it was easier to leave them in the code package than to chance possible snafus that 'might' occur if they were omitted. You would be stunned at the amount of BETAWARE that is sold at retail as a finished product. From Microsoft on down the food chain to the lowliest programmer working from their homes... nothing is 'bulletproof'. Given all the stuff that people pile atop FSX itself, it's incredible that people can even run the program at decent frames. Of course sometimes things come along that really throw a monkey wrench into the FPS. In my case, I got onto this entire issue because my system suddenly had begun crashing to the desktop, something that I had stopped since installing the UIAutomationCore.DLL back in the early days of setting up FSX.Robert.

 R. Scott McDonald  B738/L   Information is anecdotal only-without guarantee & user assumes all risks of use thereof.                                               

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