64Hi allHi all,I'm trying to figure out whether it is possible to fly a SID or STAR using only VOR (and DME). However, it appears that most of the waypoints for any of the SIDs for ENGM consist only of coordinates, no VOR references. Are there other charts I should be looking at, or have I set myself an impossible task?Frank

64Hi allHi all,I'm trying to figure out whether it is possible to fly a SID or STAR using only VOR (and DME). However, it appears that most of the waypoints for any of the SIDs for ENGM consist only of coordinates, no VOR references. Are there other charts I should be looking at, or have I set myself an impossible task?Frank

Google "VOR landing" and sites are there to explain VOR landings - videos too.This is how I found out - other simmers may want to explain here - still finding it hard to do - practice, practice. All the bestDenis

Thanks, I know the generals behinds flying a vor approach. My problem is that all the charts I find for STAR and SID for ENGM require RNAV, which I assume is equivalent to just doing waypoint navigation with a GPS or FMS. So the real question is where do I find charts that give the procedures as navaid references, or is there any way to translate the waypoints in the procedures into VOR and courses?

Example STARs:The MES3E into ENGM involves tracking radial 161 outbound from the Mesnali VOR until reaching 60DME, then flying direct to the Bergerud NDB.The MES4F can be done the same way by tracking the 164 radial outbound from Mensnali to 37DME, then expect vectors.SIDs are a little more complex, but essentially its all on these charts.For the TOMB4A, fly HDG 016 until at 1200ft, then fly HDG 349 until reaching 6DME from Gardermoen VOR. Then begin a right turn to track 054 until reaching radial 032 from the Gardermoen at 14.8DME. Then track 004, to intercept the 016 degree radial at 32.7 DME, and the 007 radial at 109.7DME.The only problems that you might encounter doing this are holds on a fix, which can be overcome but are beyond the scope of this post.You'll notice that it isn't very hard as long as you have the chart with you. I can see it easily pushing the work load up as you climb away, accelerate to 250kts, tune a VOR and set course whilst complying with altitude restrictions, maybe cleaning up the gear/flaps and having to talk to ATC.But it is possible - so have fun!

Thanks, that was exactly what I needed. The problem was that the charts I was looking atdid not contain information about the distances and radials, only the name of the waypoints. With a more detailed charge you linked to I believe it should be within my capacity to get this to work :)Of course, it is more complicated than just letting the GPS take care of it, but for now my plan is to do complicated flying while offline, and do some simple flying while online in vatsim. Hopefully I will be able to combine them someday :)

You just need to use SID/STAR procedures that don't require RNAV.

Aivlasoft EFB is able to convert any waypoint to one with a radial + DME reference. I'm using that feature every time I fly the classics.Click for a big view on the data.

Interesting, but not realistic. Just avoid DP's and STARS which require RNAV.

Example STARs:The MES3E into ENGM involves tracking radial 161 outbound from the Mesnali VOR until reaching 60DME, then flying direct to the Bergerud NDB.The MES4F can be done the same way by tracking the 164 radial outbound from Mensnali to 37DME, then expect vectors.SIDs are a little more complex, but essentially its all on these charts.For the TOMB4A, fly HDG 016 until at 1200ft, then fly HDG 349 until reaching 6DME from Gardermoen VOR. Then begin a right turn to track 054 until reaching radial 032 from the Gardermoen at 14.8DME. Then track 004, to intercept the 016 degree radial at 32.7 DME, and the 007 radial at 109.7DME.The only problems that you might encounter doing this are holds on a fix, which can be overcome but are beyond the scope of this post.You'll notice that it isn't very hard as long as you have the chart with you. I can see it easily pushing the work load up as you climb away, accelerate to 250kts, tune a VOR and set course whilst complying with altitude restrictions, maybe cleaning up the gear/flaps and having to talk to ATC.But it is possible - so have fun!

These are old charts and those procedures are no longer valid at ENGM. All of the SIDs and STARs in and out of ENGM are RNAV these days.

The sim realism is altered with the one of the planes being available. So while the nowadays rw 707 and A300 folks may be able to drive their planes with the help of the 'calculators', some of us enjoy going basic or at least awkward modern with an INS in the cockpit.So as you want to approach the airports of your choice, you may find yourself being unable to proceed with coordinates only (INS guys can cheat here). So see the EFB display of radial and DME references as a help, to combine both worlds.It wouldn't be the only realism downside and, as we know, some of us really stretch the meaning of that word way too much. I've found it to be big fun to try to fly the RNAV stuff with the old 727 or even the mighty B377. Vatsim folks don't lock you out with those planes and they would surely be able to vector you on all parts, but, hey, where's the fun when all things come that easy?However, I saw some charts giving the RNAV coordinates and some old school references attached to them. Must be location dependant. Same goes for the need to retrofit certain planes as some places will still be very open to e. g. VOR based approaches.

Thank you for all your comments. The date of the charts explains why I was not able to find any VOR and DME references in the charts I was using.Now, if I want to fly the correct procedures without an airliner with FMS, I either have to load the procedures into the GPS or fly them manually. To fly them manually, I need to have an extra applications such as EFB? are there any other decent flight planning options that allows me to export a plan with procedures in the FSX flightplan format, or with navaid references for manual tracking? Maybe I just have to shell out for EFB, they seem to have a Christmas sale going...

If you want to have a flight plan for just that one procedure, to allow the default GPS to show it, then any flight plan soft will do. If you have the coordinates and can enter them there, you can create a plan and import it to FSX.EFB would allow the general view on such procedures and can also export a plan for the default GPS on the fly. So you e. g. choose the ENGM STAR, activate it in EFB and make sure the export feature is enabled. The altered plan will then be visible in the default GPS within a second or so.Try the trial version if you like and see if it fits your needs in that aspect. It's not that cheap (but worth a ton), so the Christmas sales may indeed help. The support over there is great and fast, which adds to the package value.