Do the geriatric set have the vote?

[Clipper Ocean Spray 189]

Mr Allensworth, the survey posted in the OP, is not a survey of the target market for Flight. MS has admitted as much when they told you they were expecting this reaction form the hard core simmers. The survey posted in the OP is a survey of Avsim members. That is a small sample and heavily skewed towards the hard core side of the realism spectrum. The stated goal of Flight is to sell to people who would not previously have considered buying a flight sim, thus a survey of (a non-representative subset of) the existing flightsim users does not offer much in the way of useful marketing.FSX sold (I believe) over a million copies. How many members does Avsim have? Although we're a pretty vocal bunch, I doubt we're representative for the average flight sim user.

Who will buy Flight's DLC? Not casual users in any appreciable numbers. Serious flightsim users will. Who comes to this forum (or similar sites)? Serious flightsim users whether they're newly interested in the hobby or have been so for a long time. Avsim's demographic survey accurately represents the person who will seriously consider "buying" Flight (i.e., buying Flight's DLC). Past sales figures of FSX in the millions to casual users are now irrelevant. MS Flight embraced a free version for casual users and DLC for the people who are really interested. The tired trope that we at Avsim and similar sites are merely a sideshow is incorrect. This time around, we represent the main user base of potential, paying customers.Regarding self selection bias, that's a concern, but many surveys have performed, so they must have been deemed representative in some respects by those who designed them. The last few surveys I've seen have been prominently advertised at avsim and within easy reach of ALL members. Under those conditions, I don't see how a decision to take the survey manifested itself in a bias of age or other DEMOGRAPHIC data.

[simmerhead 885]

I have ten friends, all around 40 years old, that bought FSX. We're all a bunch of guys that grew up with Commodore and Atari computers in the 1980s loving flight sims and space games. I am the only one of those ten that have used FSX for more than a couple of hours. I have asked them why FSX didn't become a hit with them and got several answers. Apart from extremely poor graphics compared to other games, most of them found both the missions and free flight boring. They all have an above average interest in aviation and like to play FSX when they come visit me, but that is because I've got all the great addons and a cockpit setup. But they lack time, money and passion to go all in like me. My point? Microsoft might have sold many copies of FSX but I guess very few of them have become fans. It's the fans that has kept FSX alive after 2006-2007, it's the fans who buy peripherals and addons (a market Microsoft ould have dominated but gave away for free), and it's the fans that brag and show off the sim and make others buy it. Flight seems tailoted towards people with no interest in aviation, and as such seems like trying to sell ice to an Eskimo.

[xplanery 250]

I have ten friends, all around 40 years old, that bought FSX. We're all a bunch of guys that grew up with Commodore and Atari computers in the 1980s loving flight sims and space games. I am the only one of those ten that have used FSX for more than a couple of hours. I have asked them why FSX didn't become a hit with them and got several answers. Apart from extremely poor graphics compared to other games, most of them found both the missions and free flight boring.They all have an above average interest in aviation and like to play FSX when they come visit me, but that is because I've got all the great addons and a cockpit setup. But they lack time, money and passion to go all in like me. My point? Microsoft might have sold many copies of FSX but I guess very few of them have become fans.It's the fans that has kept FSX alive after 2006-2007, it's the fans who buy peripherals and addons (a market Microsoft ould have dominated but gave away for free), and it's the fans that brag and show off the sim and make others buy it. Flight seems tailoted towards people with no interest in aviation, and as such seems like trying to sell ice to an Eskimo.

Well said. I really cant see anything that would prevent Flight from becoming total failure and waste of money.

[dmaher 0]

MS surveys tell the same, they are not out of this world even if it seems like that.The plot is different, there is a purpose in MS to own the brain of younger kids because they are the customers of the future.So, which best way than owning their vulnerable brain since the beginning ?Old farts like us are not more attackable from this point of view so MS decided to hit the weak ring of the chain.As simple as that.-

Young people are playing much more sophisticated games than you and I...they've grown up with this stuff.Flight seems to be more of a 'casual game'...not at all geared towards teens.Casual gamers are less likely to "understand stuff" - if you like ;)But not kids...kids are damn savvy on computers and games.Watch a kid play and you’ll realize they are learning machines.Expect them to be offended if Flight insinuates people can't grasp complex gameplay..."Math Class is tough, Barbie!"

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Just to throw this out there, in 2010 I was 28, and did not participate in the survey.Surveys are only as good as the respondants.Best regards,Robin.

[rhumbaflappy 113]

The problem of demographics is we mistake Microsoft's intention. They set out to create a flying game. We assumed it was a simulator. I'm sure their "gamer" demographic will like this new free game, and it will attract gamers to Windows Live! ( and away from Steam, and other connectivity gaming sites ).As simmers, we were misled. From the official Flight website FAQ:

Q:How does “Microsoft Flight” differ from “Flight Simulator?” Why the new name? What’s changed?A:With “Microsoft Flight” we’re approaching the virtual flight genre from the ground up, with the focus on the universal appeal of the experience of Flight. We believe the simplicity of “Microsoft Flight” perfectly captures that vision while welcoming the millions of existing Flight Simulator fans. The new “Microsoft Flight” retains the full fidelity simulation longtime fans have come to expect while offering all players a whole new look and feel, a wide range of new game play and challenges, persistent experiences and social connectivity.

I added the bolding.Flight is not a simulator, nor is it what longtime fans have come to expect. Our shock comes from being lied to. No long flights, no commercial flights, no backward compatibility, no 3rd party commercial addons, no freeware addons, no attempt at realism, no whole earth sim ( even though they could have easily had a full earth with at least the definition of detail of FSX ).Their demographic was right. They just should have warned us it wasn't going to be a simulator at all. But they did drop simulator from the name... and that tells me this was all done intentionally, after much thought and planning. The project manager and his superiors know exactly what they are doing. And if that involves deceiving a loyal fanbase? Ya gatta love corporations!Dick Edited January 5, 2012 by rhumbaflappy

[Guest jahman]

As simmers, we were misled. From the official Flight website FAQ:

Right, with the caveat of "up to now". Flight after all is an operating system for flight simming (aerodynamics, terrain, weather engines) that cand and hopefully will be expanded in the future as add-ons are made available.Cheers,- jahman.

[n4gix 4,955]

Right, with the caveat of "up to now". Flight after all is an operating system for flight simming (aerodynamics, terrain, weather engines) that cand and hopefully will be expanded in the future as add-ons are made available.

Unless they plan to "bolt on" some 90% of what was gutted from FSX/ESP in the form of plugin modules at some future point, it will likely be of very little interest for more than a few hours to anyone, total newbie or experienced old-timer.

[LarryRF 0]

What I don't understand is why create Flight in the first place? If they new how simmers would feel about this, they new we would probably not buy into it and the hardcore amoung us would trash it to high heaven. Maybe a bit unfair as we have not even tried it ...but bad publicity is bad publicity. Lets face it, if Flight turns out to be what we all fear it is...anyone coming here to learn about simming will be instantly told to ditch Flight and get a real sim.Where is all the money in games being made? Consoles mostly. What type of games? Shooters mostly, MW3, BF3 etc. I'm stumped as to why they would even bother with a "flying game" that does not even shoot... :( Even putting Flight on Xbox Live for free would not get it much farther than on the PC...Lets face it, the younger crowd wants to blow stuff up, being 48 myself..I still break out Company of Heroes sometimes on the weekends :LMAO:How many "casual players" will actually buy Flight addons? Casual seems to me by definition...well...casual ..they don't get "into" the game, sim whatever. They play for an hour then move on...Another stumper is why invite Avsim and all the rest to their conference or whatever it was called.... Were they actually thinking this would get their blessings? I've yet to see anything positive about Flight from any of the major sites. It's mostly descriptions of what Flight is...and thats it :( Some go farther...and I'll leave it at that :(

[Guest jahman]

Unless they plan to "bolt on" some 90% of what was gutted from FSX/ESP in the form of plugin modules at some future point

Exactly! That could be a brilliant strategy $$$-wise!Arcadians don't want RW weather, ATC, AI! They just want to use their Xbox console to "fly". So they get the base pack free.Now for us, MS might just put back in everything that was taken out and we will have to pay peacemeal for every module, or pay for bundles.After all, why should arcadians' PCs (iPhones?) get bogged-down with a whole bunch of functionality they don't want, need, and have no hope of ever understanding?Cheers,- jahman. Edited January 6, 2012 by jahman

[n4gix 4,955]

Exactly! That could be a brilliant strategy $$$-wise!<snipped for brevity>After all, why should arcadians' PCs (iPhones?) get bogged-down with a whole bunch of functionality they don't want, need, and have no hope of ever understanding?

I've tried very hard to find a silver lining for this heavy cloud overcast, but somehow I just can't really work up much enthusiam any longer.

[Sherv_CLS 0]

I think it makes sense that most HARDCORE simmers would be over the age of 40. After all, the older simmers are the ones that could afford all of the add ons and hardware. ( think home cockpits. ) most teens or early 20 somethings don't have that kind of cash. In any case, MS missed the mark BIG time with their marketing . I hope Flight crashes and burns ( no pun intended ). Then maybe MS will swallow some of their greed and make a real FS 11.

[Jacoba 56]

True, this survey supports financial demographic surveys conducted for other trees as well...It is correct in so much that it points to the age groups who have the most disposable income for hobbies. Face it this hobby isn't cheap, its actually very expensive when you look at it... its not just the cost of the Sim by itself, or even the add ons... How much is the cost of a good gaming rig these days?Anyone who's tried to run FSX, with scenery, weather and a nice add on like PMDG or F1's Citation Mustang knows you need some computing horse power to pull it off.How many 20 year olds these days have $2,000 to $4,000 to spend on a nice gaming rig?Which BTW will need updating almost as regularly as new add on's come out...

[UtahJazzfan8 0]

We're a tiny minority... probably less than 1% of total MSFS sales in the past ten years.

I do agree forum members are a small minority of sorts but saying only 1% of people who buy MSFS ever post on a forum seems low to me. Maybe in the times of FS98-2000 but not today. I would say maybe 5% Edited January 6, 2012 by UtahJazzfan8

[Toys_R_Us 0]

UtahJassfan8It's not the forum numbers that count. It's the impact these people have on others. I've run a significant website myself for some time with a loyal following. I've had over 5 million hits. I think all my followers would agree that my website forum controls the thoughts of about 6 times my unique visitor hits in total people count. It's basic "referrals" and "word of mouth" and that is the key ingredient. I would not continue to run my website were it not for a particular agenda (not related to FS) I push through the dissemination of a like point of view through the use of that multiplication factor. It's very powerful and it's very real. I know that because when some related controversial thing comes along, my hit numbers jump off the chart just like this recent announcement is doing right here. Like Avsim, I become the place of choice when you just have to know first hand. IndianapolisColtsfan1, and our Luck has changed.Bob - Las Cruces, NM

Edited January 6, 2012 by Toys_R_Us