Maintain 170knots to the outer marker

[jturie 0]

Agreed, and I'll also reiterate that offering us a compromise is big, especially on VATSIM. On VATSIM, for whatever reason, pilots like to wave the PIC Authority flag and when they get something they don't like, many will just say 'unable', which makes my blood boil (one because I'm volunteering for their enjoyment of realistic ATC, and two because I'd never do that as a real world pilot for the sake of getting what I want). Offering an alternative shows me you're willing to work with me to get everyone in happily.

Yeah, I used to love those PIC guys that argued with ATC on VATSIM....and usually on /T, which must have driven you guys nuts--almost as nuts as those guys that loved to declare emergencies all the time. The ONLY time I have ever said "unable" on VATSIM was when KSLC TWR asked me to sidestep from 34R to 34L when I was on a 1-mile final because some joker taxiied right onto the runway without clearance. We both hoped that clown had collision detection on, because I wasn't going around :)

[rocketfs 2]

No offense, but there's no way anyone's getting 250 to the marker. The marker is too close. 250 on the downwind vector, maybe.

Agree, 220 is a common speed under vectoring control. Base maybe 190, llz, 180...170 till the OM is very reasonable with a 737.Bert Van Bulck

[Buzz313th 0]

In RL the right and left seaters will try to impress each other on visual approaches, by trying to manage their configuration from outside the OM/FAF to use as little power above idle as possible to come in over the fence right at Vref.The one who can start the approach the fastest, fly it the smoothest, not touch the throttle and adhere to ATC requests/limitations, while at the same time descelerate to Vref right at the fence, wins the Pilot pissing contest.Plus, when your airline checks out the Vcars, you get silent browne points for saving the most gas and ariving at the gate early.:)JB

Edited January 5, 2012 by Buzz313th

[AirbusCG 52]

First of all thanks for the answers. I understand that it is possible to slow down from 170 from the OM, but when I do so there's another problem:In some tv documentations I've heared that you have to be fully configured and you have to be through all checklists at 1000ft AGL and that's not possible when I'm still so fast at the OM.Just for reference, here's my usual procedure during such an approach:about 10NM from the FAF I start slowing down from 250 to Flaps 5 speed.When the GS is one point above I take down the gear and slow down 170.At the OM I take out the speedbrakes to get the aircraft down to slow down to landing speed and extend the flaps according to the flap speed shedule.Most often I am fully configured and through my checklists when approaching 600ft AGL. Is that normal?And just a quick other question: When do you usully go through the approach checklist? I usually do so after setting my altimeters to the local pressure, is that correct?

[Rey 11]

No offense, but there's no way anyone's getting 250 to the marker. The marker is too close. 250 on the downwind vector, maybe.

My bro once told he was in an RJ200 on his way back to ATL from SDF, and the pilots actually did do 250kts til the marker. He said the pilots told him those planes fly like bricks once you start slowing them down.Edit: Personally Emanuel, I go through my APP checklist passing through 10,000ft.Check this video out too by the way..

Edited January 5, 2012 by Rey

[Buzz313th 0]

In some tv documentations I've heared that you have to be fully configured and you have to be through all checklists at 1000ft AGL and that's not possible when I'm still so fast at the OM.

Depends on company policy, but usually they are refering to instrument approaches and in IMC. Durring a visual approach the flight crew may be relieved of those limitations. Atc usually won't ask you to speed things up if in IMC conditions. Which is one of the many reasons why airline schedules start to back up and get late when you have significant wheather at the arival airport

Just for reference, here's my usual procedure during such an approach:about 10NM from the FAF I start slowing down from 250 to Flaps 5 speed.When the GS is one point above I take down the gear and slow down 170.At the OM I take out the speedbrakes to get the aircraft down to slow down to landing speed and extend the flaps according to the flap speed shedule.Most often I am fully configured and through my checklists when approaching 600ft AGL. Is that normal?

Sounds good. But again, specifics may be different on company policy/approach profiles. You can't go wrong, if you refer to the boeing profiles in the FCOM.Don't get yourself too locked into specifics. Pic can do what they feel is necessary, even if it is out of the box from typical. Be the plane ;)One thing that will help, make a mental or written note of your power settings/configuration that gives you stabalised flight. Then you can go directly to these settings in the future.

And just a quick other question: When do you usully go through the approach checklist? I usually do so after setting my altimeters to the local pressure, is that correct?

Altimeters are part of the approach flow.Approach breifing, on the descent as soon as you have an expected runway (which also may start your approach flows)Flows well before the initial segment and check at the initial. On the visual, flows before atc gives you the clearance for the visual and check there after.JB Edited January 5, 2012 by Buzz313th

[Spin737 102]

My Air Wisconsin friends said they could do 250 to the marker in a CRJ. I wouldn't do it in the 737, though.

[downscc 1,327]

Nice topic, as someone mentioned it's the good pilots that know their machine and can manage the energy to achieve amazing results. Remember Bob Hoover's dead stick landing where he looped the plane before touchdown? That's energy management.The C414 does well mixing with jet traffic, we go into KIAH Busch Intercontinental often and are asked to keep 120 as long as possible on final in a plane that prefers 105 kts, something we can do until the approach lights and still make the first high speed turn. We usually get a thank you from the tower on those.

[rocketfs 2]

Just tried it with 62 tons off landing weight (what is about the maximum) at 170kts with an OM at 4nm from treshhold.At 1000' I'm still about 5 kts above Vref+5 but all conditions for a stabilised approach are met:Speed under control, ACFT stable and properly aligned, N1 above 40%, landing configuration,...No problem at all.Good remark way about "being unable" by the way. However, in the EBBR AIP for example, is stated that between traffic hours all aircraft must be able to maintain a speed of 160 kts till the OM (you be warned :( )Bert Van Bulck

Edited January 5, 2012 by rocketfs

[Buzz313th 0]

Nice topic, as someone mentioned it's the good pilots that know their machine and can manage the energy to achieve amazing results. Remember Bob Hoover's dead stick landing where he looped the plane before touchdown? That's energy management.

Another aviation legend... I watched Clay Lacy at one of the old Van Nuys Airshows take his PC-6 and do a 200 ft short field TO, Imediatley turn xwind and climb to patern alt, then abeam the numbers chop the throttle feather the prop, turn base and slip all the way down to gears down, center on the numbers, at the horn and stop in less than 100 ft. I swear I didn't hear him touch the throttle after chopping it at Patern Alt. I think the entire circuit from start to finish, was less than 1 minute. A long time ago, I used to see him roll his loud turbojet Lear 25 on upwind. The tower never said a word. Almost like they pretended to never see it. :)

The C414 does well mixing with jet traffic, we go into KIAH Busch Intercontinental often and are asked to keep 120 as long as possible on final in a plane that prefers 105 kts, something we can do until the approach lights and still make the first high speed turn. We usually get a thank you from the tower on those.

In the Chieftans for Amflight, we would do the same into Burbank to get in between the Southwest jets already fast on the visual. Loved that plane. Helped that the Hangers were on the east side of the field, so if we were fast, we just held the flare and floated till midfield.One thing about managing your energy on the approach with the NGX... Disco the AT and AF at the initial and you will find it easier to manage and get the feel, plus you will settle into your proper power settings as you trim, add drag and bleed speed, which is impossible to do with the plane controlling the power. The AF system will usually maintain glide path restricting you from using pitch to manage speed. If your flying all three channels by hand, then you have all the dynamics at your disposal.JB Edited January 5, 2012 by Buzz313th

[Daniel choen 23]

great topic i enjoyed reading it, i have one question, though i agree with you there's no problem slowing to AS from 170KTS.here in the UK we says, 160kts until 4DME infect 4 miles, but what does it mean until outer marker? i assume its in the US right? what's that means?

[Spin737 102]

but what does it mean until outer marker? i assume its in the US right? what's that means?

OM, LOM, FAF, the final approach fix. Some approach controllers/airports use a DME fix, others just use the FAF, and the OM is the FAF.

[Daniel choen 23]

OM, LOM, FAF, the final approach fix. Some approach controllers/airports use a DME fix, others just use the FAF, and the OM is the FAF.

what's LOM? BTW i need a good source to read some about FIX. if anyone have one please tell me.

[aceridgey 330]

At Heathrow we usually bring them 220knots on the start of the procedure [LAM for example] then 180knots on basethen160knots until 4dme.Works a treat

[Spin737 102]

what's LOM?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+does+LOM+stand+for+in+instrument+approach+procedures%3F