""I'm old enough to remember many horrible things that were done in the name of 'justice and fairness and the American way'. I know of people who have lost their business and their lives because of rumor and innuendo. I just get a little frightened when I see the beginnings of the same mentality in some of these posts.""It's not like we have the option to drag him out in the street, hang him from the yardarm and light the torch under him (although I wouldn't be opposed to it for doing this on Ebay) I guess staying quiet and just stewing in my own anger and frustration would be enough, no sense making others aware, heaven forbid someone try to see HIS point of view (kinda like the thief that sued the homeowners because he broke in and then broke his foot when tripping over a piece of furniture, and to think a judge actually considered this case, classic)To solve this beating of the dead horse, I propose all designers either go payware or never upload to anywhere, obviously isn't worth it with theives and their supporters at every turn. ;-)Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/PBTMCa.jpgCalVirAir International VACougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviation[link:www.cgrmthelos.com]Cougar Mountain Helicopters

I keep telling myself that I'm not going to respond any more and then I read something like this. Michael - did you think about what you wrote before you wrote it? Your attitude in a way is exactly what I'm talking about.Hang him from the yardarm, mateys!!! We don't weant to listen to his side and anyone that does is a supporter of his thievery and should be hung also.That's what you just said - is that what you really meant? I guess I'm still enough of an optimist to believe that someone is innocent until proven guilty. But you'd hang him based upon the rantings of an alarmist with no proof of his accusations.Cool! That's the same logic that most dictators use to justify their actions.Pat yourself on the back. :)Vic

This is DAM disgracefull!He's risking everyones privilage of getting great freeware add-ons.I hope ebay wi9ll take the correct action to stop this.and well done for spotting it!thanks,CallumSSW Moderator

Vic...Hardly offensive... You raise a good point. If the compilation authors were seeking permission, then it's nobody's business that the work is getting sold on ebay. But you are also assuming the OP didn't do his research before opening the thread. I saw nothing in the post that suggested that, nor am I judge and jury here to "get the truth."Many freeware authors have learned of their work getting hijacked through threads like this. Moreover, I've counted many first time visitors to this site in the past week. They need to know that some of these ebay offerings are nothing but scams. Many first time visitors aren't old enough to know what I know and what you should know--that if it looks like a Duck and walks like a Duck.... You know the rest.In every instance I've seen prior to this thread, freeware authors who have had work hijacked have come in to thank the author. We can throw out labels all night, and if the word "alarmist" gets thrown on someone trying to help, it's really sad for our hobby.I'm also old enough to know that the problems of the past you note are still going on today. There's still a lot of rumor and inneundo that's used to discredit opinion, religious freedom, color of skin, etc.... in this country and all over the planet. Even more so then the turbulent times I grew up in, where "Communists" were said to hide under every corner. Even more so today, it seems if you suggest something that seems contrary to "free enterprise" in today's political environment, you're either called an alarmist, or liberal media, or any number of labels.As a freeware author I thank the person who opened this thread. Someone is looking out for my interests....leaving me more time to work rather than hire a copyright lawyer to police my work....

John - I have always enjoyed your posts, your reasonable attitude and your work. I'm in a strange position here because it appears I'm fighting against something that I am actually in favor of. In Mischa's second post he indicated that he had just sent the guy a message and hadn't contacted ebay yet. My response was mainly to his " we've beaten this dead horse" post. If you open a door and someone steps through, don't chastise the person. He brought it up and yet pooh pooh's me for beating a dead horse? The alarmist and extremist terms were yours, I just borrowed them :).I also think it's good that this type of thing be brought forward. I don't frequent ebay so if any of my work were there, I'd sure want to know about it.I really don't object to Mischa's rreporting his observations,my objection is to the : "Here we go again" subject line followed by the " This guy has the gall to...."How about we pass on the editorializing and just report that a freeware compilation cd is being sold on ebay, possibly alerting individual authors that their work is there. The "walk like a duck" analogy doesn't realy work. Our whole system of justice is based upon protecting the innocent, not punishing the guilty. If just once it *wasn't* a duck, then the damage is done. Report the event - check into it if you see fit, but accusations without proof or based upon "looking like a duck" are still scary.I hope that Mischa and others who see this type of thing will continue to do us all a service and let everyone know, just with a little less rancor. :)Just MHO,Vic

Vic,For someone who is complaining about people beating a horse dead you have taken quite some time to beat the dead horse even more dead. I posted here to alert other freeware authors who might be bothered by this practice. Personally, I have issues with people making a profit off of my work against my explicit instructions. The screenshots of the seller in this particular auction leave no doubt to me that he is selling among other things SGA/FFX and POSKY aircraft which are subject to strict EULAs and whose authors NEVER allow payware distribution (search the POSKY forums if you don't believe me). Plus selling CDs of downloaded siftware quite simply violates Ebay rules. There are no two ways about it. You cannot speak about accusations without proof therefore. Now, my experience is that contacting ebay has little effect, whereas lots of emails to the seller from affected authors do. Some sellers do act in good faith and when bombarded with emails of people who point out the negative effects this has on the freeware community will stop the auction. The goal is simply to preserve freeware for all. I know many freeware authors are sensitive to this kind of stuff and will rather close down their shop completely than tolerate this. I don't know what your issue is, but I find it rather offensive that you play the high and mighty and compare those who bring up these violations here with McCarthyist red scare propagandists. You must have lost all sense of proportion. Nobody is pursuing anyone here for how they think, but for something they did in concrete violation of readmes, EULAs and the terms of business of ebay. Now if you have problems with people beating dead horses dead, will you please get off that horse carcass now?Misha (without c)

Hi Vic,>First IANAL so I won't even pretend to spout what is legal or>illegal. So what is being siad then is, in my scenario, if I>were to contact the freeware author and have his permission to>use his work in my compilation - then I am doing nothing>illegal - not violating any copyrights nor breaking any>rules.That is correct.>That said, what bothers me about the OP approach is that, from>what I can determine, he has absolutely NO IDEA whether or not>the vendor has permission from the freeware developers.>Chances are he's correct but still - to paint this guy with>the 'crook' brush without confirmation is, IMHO, just as>blatantly offensive as the guy who's selling the freeware CD.Prima facie I would agree with your sentiment. However, the pictures included in the Ebay offering depict aircraft by some well-known freeware authors who categorically deny permission to anyone wishing to redistribute their software. >I guess what I'm really responding to is the alarmist>attitude. I'm old enough to remember many horrible things that>were done in the name of 'justice and fairness and the>American way'. I know of people who have lost their business>and their lives because of rumor and innuendo. I just get a>little frightened when I see the beginnings of the same>mentality in some of these posts.This type of attitude appears to have made a remarkable comeback in recent years, so youngsters who may have missed it on countless occasions in the past do have a chance to catch up ;).>let me throw one more hypothetical :) same situation ONLY the>vendor HAS the permission of the freeware author(s) and other>than the raw cost of the ebay listing, all profits go to a>charity. This is NOT publicized in the listing but can be read>in the readme file after purchase. Now, some alarmist contacts>ebay screaming illegal copyright violation etc without ever>taking the time to check out the situation and the listing>gets pulled and the vendor gets banned from ebay. Now who's>damaging who? All I say is before posting someone's contact>info etc and screaming foul, a little ground work should be>done. Even though I believe the OP is correct in his>assumption, it is STILL an assumption.Ebay is a business based on giving individuals the opportunity of offering their goods for private sale. And in this line of business there will always be some people who bear a grudge against one vendor or another. I'm sure they receive hundreds of complaints every day, but unless a complainant can show on the balance of probabilities that a vendor is breaking the law (or Ebay rules) by offering a particular product for sale, they're highly unlikely to take any action - after all they receive their commission from products being sold, not from ones withdrawn from sale. The person most likely to get banned is the complainant who makes unfounded allegations.>Well, I've probably offended enough people for one day - time>to go fly. Gotta keep telling myself, it's a hobby........I don't see how a well thought-out argument like yours could possibly offend anyone :).Cheers,Gosta.http://www.hifisim.com/images/as2betateam.jpg

GuysThis really has turned into an interesting thread. I'd like to add some 'food for thought'...A couple of years ago, I legitimately purchased and downloaded an FS add-on aircraft from a commercial developer with whom I had terrible relations. As a result, I received a refund from the 'developer' stating that unless I publicly apologied for my remarks about him, I was not welcome as a customer and, as such, could not 'fly' the plane. Amoungst various other pseudo-legal threats, I was warned that '...to use the product in any way would be a clear violation of the EULA.....' etc. (No prizes for guessing who I'm talking about!)The point here is that the same 'developer' has been quite happy to use Airline's logos commercially with no permissions whatsoever, which of course is also in clear breach of copyright etc. We are all aware that in reality, airlines are quite relaxed about the use of their logos/liveries in freeware renditions, but take a very different view to their use in commercial releases (although they turn a 'blind eye' to it in most cases). However, that doesn't re-write the law and the rights of the copyright owner are preserved.A simple analogy may be that you decide to buy a can of beans at a supermarket. On the label of the can, there is nothing printed to the effect of saying ".. the theft of this can of beans from the supermarket with the intention of re-selling it at a car boot sale is illegal and expressly prohibited..." The simple truth is that if caught, the thief will be prosecuted.Finally, I believe it's important to re-visit issues like this from time to time when new 'transgressions' come to light. As John Ci said, there are many new members to this forum (and the community) each week and how are they to understand what is acceptable or unacceptable behaviour if issues like this aren't discussed again, simply as they've been mentioned on the forums before?Toni.

Misha ( without the c) - Apologies for misspelling your name - from your last post, it is quite obvious you have completely missed the whole point of my argument and instead appear to respond as if there wedre a persoal attack on you. Really not the case, if I wished to attack you personally, and I have no reason to do so, I would do it quite well.Sorry my concept is beyond your scope,Vic

OK !!Solution: 1. Inform the developers.2. Let them take it from there.Can someone please take the dead horse to the knackers now? :D

>OK !!>>Solution: >>1. Inform the developers.>2. Let them take it from there.>>Can someone please take the dead horse to the knackers now? :D>>>AH! A reasonable solution - how simple!Dead horse on it's way........BTW, what's a 'knackers'? :)Vic