Question for all the pi##ed 3PD about Flight...

[Arwen 289]

No, we end up with them going back to the drawing board. There's no way MS is going to let X-Plane take the whole FS market (that's wishful thinking on my part). Flight is just some crap until they get their heads out the sand.Either way you can't expect people to buy into something on hope alone. We have a gutted hack on FSX that's going to really have to morph into something more serious before it's taken serious. Shutting out the very people that's carried this franchise for the last 17 years is not helping their cause. Arwen, promising things that Microsoft themselves aren't promising isn't helping either.

Why would MS "go back to the drawing board?" If Flight ends up being a popular flying game, what does MS care if X-Plane is a better flightsim? Especially if Flight makes a LOT more money.Fine, keep arguing and ridiculing Flight. When Flight fails you get to blame yourself (along with all the others here who would rather argue than support something new).BTW: What things have I been promising?

[Dillon 2,198]

Im going to enjoy this. I havent had a digital wang measureing contest in a long time! I think a shorter list would be who have I NOT worked with. I will try to keep this cronological, but this is just off the top of my head and its hard to keep them orginized.First was with Oleg Maddox. You may know him from 1C/IL2 Sturmovik/1946/Pacific Fighters. I did the PBY Catalina, Spit IX, V, Ki-43, P- , Go-229, P-63, Cw-21B and maybe a few others. I also helped orginize all the 3rd party aircraft at IL2 Center after Ilya left.I did a few CFS3 projects after that. Then I went into FS2004 with Sky Unlimited and did a few things for them. I did a bunch of 3rd party stuff for FSX for company's like Milviz, A2A, Vertigo, Aerosoft, Razbam, FSD and maybe a few more. I also worked at ACES, MGS and now run my own 3rd party add-on maker KC Flight Shop.As I said, there is a reason you dont see a lot of big iron to the level of PMDG's NGX. It takes a lot of time, money, and a talent. If you disagree, please feel free to make one yourself and prove me wrong. Come back in 4-5 years and tell me how it went.

At this point I could care less how many things you've done. This is not an attack on you personally but your stance on 3PD has lost me and it's not even worth my time...

[Gibbage 199]

At this point I could care less how many things you've done.

Your the one that asked. Now that I tell you, it does not matter? Hummmmmm... Try to at least ACT civil. If you have a problem with what I said, debate it. But calling a statement an "idiotic baffoon statement" is a rather childish way to debate a point. Also, dont go spreading lies. Its clear that MS has approached 3rd party's by some post's (OrbX?), but they could not come to an agreement. Saying they "shut out" 3rd party's is a total lie.

[N2056 33]

You can't deny the fact that the freeware 3PD types were D.O.A.If it were not for that element of the hobby I highly doubt Flight would exist.

[Dillon 2,198]

Your the one that asked. Now that I tell you, it does not matter? Hummmmmm... Try to at least ACT civil. If you have a problem with what I said, debate it. But calling a statement an "idiotic baffoon statement" is a rather childish way to debate a point.Also, dont go spreading lies. Its clear that MS has approached 3rd party's by some post's (OrbX?), but they could not come to an agreement. Saying they "shut out" 3rd party's is a total lie.

At another time it would have mattered but there's a larger issue here. Your trying to sell Microsoft is not shutting out 3rd party development even though PMDG has a big writeup on the subject and so does Orbix. We don't even want to talk about Aerosoft and FSAddon. The fact is there's many developers that weren't invited to Redmond for the big conference about Flight, why? Last but not least I can't understand how you could think refusing to do an SDK is not viewed as shutting people out. Without an SDK you can't develop for Flight but let you tell it Micsosoft is standing with open arms. I don't have all night to debate this. The whole argument against 3PDers is insane to me. I for one appreciate everything these guys have done over the years and MS's DLC will never replace them as you will soon find out. :( Edited February 16, 2012 by Dillon

[Gibbage 199]

Dillon. I never said Flight is standing there with open arms. But its clear that there is development, EVEN BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, with 3rd party's. It may not be open like a proper SDK, but its clear there are 3rd party involvement in Flight (OrbX and PMDG). You just proved you lied.Without an SDK, 3rd party's now need to step to Microsoft's drum if they want to develop for MS Flight. Its clear from OrbX and PMDG's postings that they dont agree with the rules, and I doubt they will have many 3rd party dev's lined up for there little dance party. At least not right away. Simply because in the past, 3rd party's have been getting a free ticket. Now that the free rides stopped, you bet 3rd party's are angry!Here is the thing Dillon. Read this a few times to get it through your skull. I never once said I agreed with MS doing this. Let me bold that for you. I never once said I agreed with MS doing this. I can understand there reasons, but I dont agree with them. I wish MSF was more open with there 3rd party plans as this secrete NDA BS is causing a lot of hurt feelings and pure RAGE (like you) in the community. MS is doing a massive disservice my not having an open forum with 3rd party dev's. I hope this ends, but I can honestly say I dont know MS's plans for 3rd party's, so im not going to assault them on it.Is my stance clear now Dillon? Im I still the anti-3rd party for NOT attacking MS at every chance?

[Dillon 2,198]

Dillon. I never said Flight is standing there with open arms. But its clear that there is development, EVEN BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, with 3rd party's. It may not be open like a proper SDK, but its clear there are 3rd party involvement in Flight (OrbX and PMDG). You just proved you lied.

Dude what are you talking about???Orbix wrote a blurb on what happened to them. They stated during the early stages of Flight which was supposed to be FS11 they were called in long enough to get a few things out of them and then dismissed never to hear from the Flight team again. Go read it yourself, I thought you were Mr. Informed, a major contributor and developer. I guess from there the new non-Aces team chose the easy approach, gut the contents of many FSX folders, slap in a new gui with some new features, and call it FLIGHT. I don't know what your talking about concerning 3rd party involvement in Flight today, that's a new one on me...

Here is the thing Dillon. Read this a few times to get it through your skull.

Get this through your skull, you can't walk on both sides of the fence because that's what it looks like now. Choose a side and stay on it...You come in here on a bandwagon, get called out on it, then start flipping like a pancake. Edited February 16, 2012 by Dillon

[Gibbage 199]

Like I said, OrbX and PMDG could not agree on terms (there own post's). Thats all we know. If a 3rd party was developing for Flight, im sure they are deep in NDA and cant talk about it. The only side of the story we are hearing from are the disgruntled dev's who didnt respect the NDA. Its safe to assume we dont have the full story on whats going on. I also guess you just stopped at the first paragraph and didnt read the rest. Even after I put it in bold for you. I see im waisting my time.

[Guest jahman]

3rd party's have been getting a free ticket. Now that the free rides stopped, you bet 3rd party's are angry!

That of course is only one POV (and the one you happen to favour). The other POV is FSX (the franchise) is really but an operating system for flight simulation, like Windows is an OS for applications.So how would it look is after many years and many versions suddenly MS decided to no longer release a Windows SDK and develop all the apps themselves? It would be rather disingenious.So perhaps the smart thing for MS to do should have been:

1. Continue with FSXI,
2. Develop their own add-ons (if they thought the 3PD market was so hot) and have them compete on their merits alone.
3. Add the FBM - Fly-by-Mouse system of Flight! to draw newbies into flight simming.

Cheers,- jahman.

Edited February 16, 2012 by jahman

[David Roch 1,984]

You just proved you lied.

You are very agressive Kevin and calling a fellow poster a liar is not the best thing to do if you wish to stay with us.I hope I am clear enough.

[Guest dreckman]

You are very agressive Kevin

WOW!I realize your are the admin, but I hope you have read the whole thread.It seems to me Kevin was being attacked from all angles. But then it seems the posters with counts in the thousands tend to get away with things.Why not start a "We hate MSFT they screwed us over" forum and get that crap out of this one.and pleaseDELETE_MY_ACCOUNT - this is not a community I want to participate in. Edited February 16, 2012 by delete_my_account

[trevorbee 0]

In it's simple form MSFT has basically taken the sim back to FS1.0 with modern graphics. It seems logical to me that their end-target would be an improved version of FSX some day. Again, not 25 years, but much more quickly.

Hi Rush1169Another excellent post full of insight. They had to strip it down and start again. But a small flying game will have limited appeal. So, surely, their vision is to take it much further over time.All is not lost - but it will cost us.

[basys 4]

Admins & ModeratorsI appreciate you have a lot of ground to cover.This is at least the second threadwhere moderators who've not bothered to read the threadhave unwarrantedly warned or ad-hominem attacked the victimand not the original perpetrator.It's unacceptable.

[ramrunner800 10]

Admins & ModeratorsI appreciate you have a lot of ground to cover.This is at least the second threadwhere moderators who've not bothered to read the threadhave unwarrantedly warned or ad-hominem attacked the victimand not the original perpetrator.It's unacceptable.

I'm not sure which unwarranted warning you're referring to, because combing the thread, the only warnings I've seen seem to be well advised (we should probably refrain from calling each other liars and buffoons). I've also not seen any ad hominem attacks. Ad hominem attacks would be part of an argument (in the rhetorical sense of the word), and I've yet to see a mod actually take part in the thread, other than to wave the caution flag. There are two threads on this subject that seem to be moving in pretty constructive directions. Perhaps it's best to let this divisive thread die.http://forum.avsim.net/topic/362789-a-rare-flight-forum-positive-post/http://forum.avsim.net/topic/362794-petulance-and-tantrums/

[Dillon 2,198]

Admins & ModeratorsI appreciate you have a lot of ground to cover.This is at least the second threadwhere moderators who've not bothered to read the threadhave unwarrantedly warned or ad-hominem attacked the victimand not the original perpetrator.It's unacceptable.

Fist off Tom sent me a PM telling scolding me. I for the record publicly apologize for my part in this but there's no thought about the OP and the title of this thread. A topic like,"Question for all the pi##ed 3PD about Flight.." is meant to stir the flames is it not (and read all the responses agreeing with OP views)? Let's stop being one sided here. Like I said I apologize for my part in this. Edited February 16, 2012 by Dillon