Why is there no Flood lighting for the overhead panel in the real 737?

[dho112 17]

Just out of curiosity... I've read other posts asking about how to turn on flood lighting like the panel lighting for the overhead, and replies stating that flood lighting for the overhead isn't present on the real 737 either, and I was just wondering what the reason for that is? i.e. not possible to light the overhead with a flood without causing bad light reflections off the cockpit windows, very detrimental to night vision even at lowest possible setting etc etc...Even with the gauge lighting on the overhead on at maximum, the lack of "ambient" or "spillover" lighting from it makes seeing many of the toggle switches and knobs almost invisible at night, and every now and then I'll have to flip on the dome light (that's hard to spot at night too :) ) to get a good visual on the panel... and I'm certain that switching on the dome light at night while in flight is a sure way to wash out your night vision for a few minutes in real life...I think it would be a great addition in a patch to NGX to have the overhead panel exude an orange glow version that simulated the effect of having the gauge lighting on at maximum so you could better see the non illuminated knobs and switches that were marked only by printed and not illuminated lettering. I think they do a version of this for the MCP and front panel when you turn the panel lighting on for them where the knobs and switches have several levels (different graphics) of illumination as you turn the light intensity up...

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Think about it. In order to get light to shine on the overhead, I'd have to mount a light below the pilots somewhere to cast light up on the overhead. You could mount it on the floor, or you could mount it on the pedestal. On the floor, it would be stepped on all the time (and aircraft get beaten day in and day out - that light would go quickly), and on the pedestal could end up hurting your eyes every time you went to do something on the pedestal. It would also be blocked partially by the chair, your shoulders, the throttle levers and so on, so you'd end up getting weird shadows.I have absolutely no problem using the lighting as it is, and I end up using the minimum lighting possible (I normally leave all the floods off and just use panel lighting - if anything, I'll light the floods for the MCP and the main panel, but not the pedestal). Are you using a shader mod? If so, perhaps it's set too aggressively.I'm not sure what you're getting at with the orange glow. Turning the integrated (backlit) lighting on wouldn't really produce that type of effect. To simulate that would be unrealistic and weird, to be honest. I somewhat hate to say it, but a little part of learning to fly at night is fumbling around to find what you need. From there, continuing to fly at night is partially muscle memory of "the switch for that is right...*click*...here," just like trying to find a light switch in your house after you've been there for years.

[Chock 17,769]

Most Boeing aircraft from the era of the 737 use a visual system on the overhead called the 'lights out principle', which is that when all the lights are out, there are no problems; so lighting up the overhead would kind of defeat the object of that system, since with the panel dark, any light which comes on immediately draws attention to an issue. The effect is somewhat spoiled by one or two functions which are actually lit up when there is nothing wrong, but the lights are in fact also colour coded, from green and blue through amber to red, which indicates the level of severity or urgency in addressing what the light indicates, and generally speaking, the aim is to put if not all, then most of the lights out.Al

[Spin737 102]

Oh, the joys of the 737. To add, things like the start switches are better checked by feel than by sight when it's dark out. The lights/switchology is pretty archaic. Bright blue/dim blue. . . Two big LCDs that are almost completely wasted. . .

[Ralgh 43]

I'm gonna have to side with David on this one. In the real plane I can see the unlit switches much better than in NGX. You get more ambient illumination from the back lighting. It's still not great but I can see them better in the real plane. I never brought it up because I thought I was the only one having trouble seeing stuff on the overhead panel.

[Ed van de Vijver 2]

I'm gonna have to side with David on this one. In the real plane I can see the unlit switches much better than in NGX. You get more ambient illumination from the back lighting. It's still not great but I can see them better in the real plane. I never brought it up because I thought I was the only one having trouble seeing stuff on the overhead panel.

+1

[dho112 17]

Think about it. In order to get light to shine on the overhead, I'd have to mount a light below the pilots somewhere to cast light up on the overhead. You could mount it on the floor, or you could mount it on the pedestal. On the floor, it would be stepped on all the time (and aircraft get beaten day in and day out - that light would go quickly), and on the pedestal could end up hurting your eyes every time you went to do something on the pedestal. It would also be blocked partially by the chair, your shoulders, the throttle levers and so on, so you'd end up getting weird shadows.I have absolutely no problem using the lighting as it is, and I end up using the minimum lighting possible (I normally leave all the floods off and just use panel lighting - if anything, I'll light the floods for the MCP and the main panel, but not the pedestal). Are you using a shader mod? If so, perhaps it's set too aggressively.I'm not sure what you're getting at with the orange glow. Turning the integrated (backlit) lighting on wouldn't really produce that type of effect. To simulate that would be unrealistic and weird, to be honest. I somewhat hate to say it, but a little part of learning to fly at night is fumbling around to find what you need. From there, continuing to fly at night is partially muscle memory of "the switch for that is right...*click*...here," just like trying to find a light switch in your house after you've been there for years.

Think about it :) There is emergency floor lighting in the cabin of the aircraft that gets stepped on about 1000 times more often than a flood in the floor of the flight deck... Do you actually think that the engineers couldn't make a floor recessed light fixture that could withstand a blast point blank from a pistol for cheap if they wanted to? :) The arguments against a floor mounted flood for the overhead are more reasonable concerning things like papers or your flightbag getting placed on top of it, but getting broken because you step on it? That's fairly off the wall since they make recessed runway lighting that you can runover with a 747... I'm absolutely certain that even a brain dead engineer could place a flood somewhere on the floor where it didn't get blocked by anything shining upward. It wouldn't even need t be placed on the floor or even close to the floor, you could place a low intensity directional spot in the rear over the breaker panels, the overhead is pitched such that a light even shining from ceiling height toward the panel would do a good job of illuminating it.I've been in the cockpit of an Airforce A-10C at night (just sitting in it as a guest) the pilot on the ramp outside of the cockpit explaining things to me, he flipped on the cockpit night lighting and it was composed of two directional spotlights that were aimed at the front panel from behind your shoulders... It did an amazing job of bathing the front panel in useable light without casting any reflections on the cockpit front or HUD glass... This could be EASILY done for a 737's overhead panel I think :)I'm not sure how you CAN'T understand how gauge lighting couldn't illuminate switches and knobs in close proximity... Think about it... If all the overhead gauge lighting was on, and you held your hand up next to one of the illuminate areas, are you telling me that you can't understand that your fingers would be illuminated? or anything close to the light source, like a knob?I'm not sure how to take your statement, "part of flying is fumbling around to find what you need" Could other real world pilots confirm that? If that was true, why illuminate any swtich or knob in the cockpit at all? I would imagine a more pragmatic approach would be, illuminate everything for night flying as much as possible and allow the pilot to reduce that amount until they are comfortable and not washing out there night vision. To tell a pilot that you must be able to find that switch in the dark is recommended, but to not have the option ever, to be able to see that switch at night to boost situational awareness is kind of ludicrous, imagine an emergency situation where the pilot would have to take the time to touch each toggle and knob to check its position, rather than simply being able to quickly scan it visually to confirm its position without having to take their hands off the flight controls. I'm no pilot, but I think if something was on fire somewhere on the plane, 5 or 6 seconds you could have saved can be a really long time.Also keep in mind its not a question of finding a light switch in your house in the dark after you've been there 5 years... Its a question of how much more difficult it would be to find that light switch in the dark if the house was on fire and you were frantically looking for your kids, your wife, and your dog all at the same time and in the middle of an earthquake.Read Ralgh's post below... I think there might be a silent majority here...Sorry to sound so snarky, not meaning to, just working at the same time as writing this and I can't devote as much mental resource to social graces like I would normally do :) I would even forego the idea of an overhead flood, if they made the ioverhead panel more realistically lit when the guage lighting is on, that would be more than enough! such that right when the gauge light are turned on, the switches, knobs, and toggles are swapped for a "gauge lights on night" version, with the completely black versions of course retained in case of lighting failure.This is what I mean... If you look at the pump switches, and the electriic hydraulic switches and even the pack and equipment cooling switches you can see what I mean by ambient guage lighting. What is actually "weird" looking to me is how NGX does it with the switch right next to an illumination source being absolutely inky black, like it is not even there... That defies the laws of physics :) It's like the knobs and switches are little black holes sucking in all the light... and you end up having to determine their positions at a glance by seeing how they block out their background... a very odd effect which doesn't seem to be at the same excellent level as the rest of the cockpit effects...compared to...

[dho112 17]

Most Boeing aircraft from the era of the 737 use a visual system on the overhead called the 'lights out principle', which is that when all the lights are out, there are no problems; so lighting up the overhead would kind of defeat the object of that system, since with the panel dark, any light which comes on immediately draws attention to an issue. The effect is somewhat spoiled by one or two functions which are actually lit up when there is nothing wrong, but the lights are in fact also colour coded, from green and blue through amber to red, which indicates the level of severity or urgency in addressing what the light indicates, and generally speaking, the aim is to put if not all, then most of the lights out.Al

Absolutely Al, this makes sense to me... No lights, everything is good :) But I wasn't talking about hitting the overhead with an HID headlight :) Just a variable source that would illuminate the surface like the pedestal at night... A light indicating a fault is CERTAINLY something that has to grab your attention on the overhead, but conversely, if you can see that fault indication light in the daytime, why would softly illuminating the overhead at night make anything more difficult? and actually make things easier and more clear since you could more quickly see the position of an errant switch or knob more quickly with soft illumination, instead of feeling for all of them?

[Tabs 2,790]

I will ask Vin if this is possible but I doubt it is unfortunately. Lighting in FSX is not actually rendered light that illuminates things the way it does in other 3D game engines. I'm not sure how we could get that ambient or spillover light effect as a result... definitely not aware of any other aircraft in FS that has that.

[kevinh 409]

Most Boeing aircraft from the era of the 737 use a visual system on the overhead called the 'lights out principle', which is that when all the lights are out, there are no problems; so lighting up the overhead would kind of defeat the object of that system, since with the panel dark, any light which comes on immediately draws attention to an issue. The effect is somewhat spoiled by one or two functions which are actually lit up when there is nothing wrong, but the lights are in fact also colour coded, from green and blue through amber to red, which indicates the level of severity or urgency in addressing what the light indicates, and generally speaking, the aim is to put if not all, then most of the lights out.Al

The 737 Overhead predates the dark cockpit concept as such (it's a 1960's design after all), but as it happens lights out generally does mean all is well. As for a floodlight on the overhead, you'd have to ask why it would be needed. The dome lights illuminate the overhead panel fairly well IIRC, and if you select storm lights on it's like sitting in bright daylight. There's no shortage of illumination.I can't say I've had a problem seeing switch positions at night on the overhead in the NGX either.

[dho112 17]

I will ask Vin if this is possible but I doubt it is unfortunately. Lighting in FSX is not actually rendered light that illuminates things the way it does in other 3D game engines. I'm not sure how we could get that ambient or spillover light effect as a result... definitely not aware of any other aircraft in FS that has that.

Hi Ryan!Thank you for the quick reply! Rendered light as in a light sourced effects I don't think are even necessary :) I don't know if I am correct in this assumption, but it doesn't look at all like the MCP or Front panel knobs and controls are light sourced, but use what looks like a level selective graphic file "switch" that is it seems that as the cockpit gets darker and lighter in "steps" as the sun goes down for example you see at certain times a little "blip" and all of a sudden the panels and switches get a darker or lighter shade of color as it switches graphic files... Also when you turn up say, the MCP flood lighting, you can see the swtiches step thru the progressive light and lighter shades of what I assume are graphic files applied to them in steps depending on what the instensity knob is set to... Is that right? It makes the knobs and switches and toggles that don't have guage illumination far easier to see at night... The pedestal is a better example... at night, when you turn up the flood "one click" all the knobs and buttons and switches etc go from black, to partially glowing, its obviously a file switch of the object graphics... Couldn't you do this kind of thing for the objects on the overhead? except in a much more subtle orange glow from the gauge lighting variably dependent on that setting since there is no seperate flood?Since the real 737 does not have spot lighting illumination on the overhead I would never want it added as it would not be authentic, but would it be possible to have the toggle switch, knob, dial etc objects and the panel itself have a "at night with gauge lighting on" version? Just as there are versions of the panel for day and night? The night panel with gauges on would have the flat portion of the panel have a subtle orange glow from the ambient gauge lights (not the fault and alert lights as those are normally off) but just the areas and objects that would be lit by gauge lighting that is normally always on at night?I realize that its probably not a simple thing to implement, but it looks as though its been done already in a variant form on other panels in the cockpit. By the way, I think what you've done with this sim is absolutely spectacular! What I was mentioning about the lighting is more a niggling thing than a deal breaker by far :)

The 737 Overhead predates the dark cockpit concept as such (it's a 1960's design after all), but as it happens lights out generally does mean all is well. As for a floodlight on the overhead, you'd have to ask why it would be needed. The dome lights illuminate the overhead panel fairly well IIRC, and if you select storm lights on it's like sitting in bright daylight. There's no shortage of illumination.I can't say I've had a problem seeing switch positions at night on the overhead in the NGX either.

Since its a simulation, I could see how flying at night with the dome light on always is not a big deal, but in the real aircraft, would they do that? Also the dome light is VERY bright, so bright that you could turn off all the night illumination on the controls and you'd be fine, but it sure makes it hard to see anything outside the windows without squinting :) and that is just in the sim, in real life it must be 10 times worse to fly that way :)I can see the overhead fairly well at night if I turn the gamma up on my monitor, but it ends up making the rest of the easily viewed at night cockpit look very hign contrast and washed out, not at all realistic looking in my opinion...Have a look at my screen shot above of the overhead at night in NGX, does yours look that dark? or is it just me?

[Buzz313th 0]

Some of you that are having problems seeing the into the shadows such as the overhead.. Just try reducing contrast or very slightly increasing brightness either on your video card driver or directly on your monitor. Bring it up just enough so you can see the switches.

[dho112 17]

Some of you that are having problems seeing the into the shadows such as the overhead.. Just try reducing contrast or very slightly increasing brightness either on your video card driver or directly on your monitor. Bring it up just enough so you can see the switches.

Hi Jack,Yes, I've done that, but I don't know if its because I have a good monitor or a bad one *laughing* but when I turn the brightness up so that I can just comfortably see the switches in the overhead, the rest of the cockpit looks like its in a fog or haze, it makes me want to send a mayday, "Smoke in the cockpit" :)Additionally it seems to me more realistic that if ALL the lights go out on a pitch black night, I shouldn't be able to see the overhead at all :) and if I set it so that the brightness setting makes them visible at night, then its kind of a cheat that makes a primary cockpit lighting failure kind of a non-issue emergency :)

[Buzz313th 0]

Hi Jack,Yes, I've done that, but I don't know if its because I have a good monitor or a bad one *laughing* but when I turn the brightness up so that I can just comfortably see the switches in the overhead, the rest of the cockpit looks like its in a fog or haze, it makes me want to send a mayday, "Smoke in the cockpit" :)Additionally it seems to me more realistic that if ALL the lights go out on a pitch black night, I shouldn't be able to see the overhead at all :) and if I set it so that the brightness setting makes them visible at night, then its kind of a cheat that makes a primary cockpit lighting failure kind of a non-issue emergency :)

Yeah.. I'm able to bring up the ambience just enough that I am able to see just the outline of the switches. It also helps if I turn down the overhead backlighting, then my eyes adjust just enough where its easier to see the switches and other 3d items. Fortunately on my system, after doing this does not introduce an a fog or overgamma situation that makes the rest of the pit look bad.

[kevinh 409]

Since its a simulation, I could see how flying at night with the dome light on always is not a big deal, but in the real aircraft, would they do that? Also the dome light is VERY bright, so bright that you could turn off all the night illumination on the controls and you'd be fine, but it sure makes it hard to see anything outside the windows without squinting :) and that is just in the sim, in real life it must be 10 times worse to fly that way :)I can see the overhead fairly well at night if I turn the gamma up on my monitor, but it ends up making the rest of the easily viewed at night cockpit look very hign contrast and washed out, not at all realistic looking in my opinion...Have a look at my screen shot above of the overhead at night in NGX, does yours look that dark? or is it just me?

Some pilots do use dome lights in cruise, see the current thread on cockpit lighting http://forum.avsim.n...737-pilots-use/. Also the domes have a dim setting, not that that seems to make any significant difference in the NGX.Compared to your screenshot, my panel is readable. I can easily make out switch positions, etc. I've never messed with gamma settings, so I suppose it's down to video card and driver differences.Edit: Now I've posted my screenshot I can see no real difference viewing both in the browser, but viewing my screen in FSX did seem more readable compared to the screenshot in the browser. Maybe that's due to the contrast of the white background surrounding the screenshots.