Suggestions of landing simulation practice for real flying?

[Great Ozzie 101]

IMO (and I won't be humble here) someone that doesn't have that experience to call on can learn behaviours that would not fare well in a real aircraft cause the sim wasn't programmed to respond correctly to that kind of input.

 

Well it is certainly an interesting perspective and belief... and it's a (the) big question... is the sim pilot setting them self up for more work because of having to unlearn some behaviours... or will the brain have something familiar to work with and make the appropriate adjustments from sim input to actual aircraft input.

 

I think one of the keys here is supervision. A student gets proper instruction on the four fundamentals. They can then go back and practice those four things (and combinations thereof...) "ok going to start a Vy climb (pitches the nose to Vy attitude using external reference while adding full power)... add in a 90° left turn to West... another 90° left turn to South... level off appropriately (building airspeed before setting power). Mastery of these things is obviously important and I think can be supplemented with sim practice.

 

On the issue of operating / configuring the aircraft... here again I think can be beneficial. The FAA requires the person operating a BATD or AATD to have "certain physical controls" i.e. no keyboard / mouse. How important is that? How to quanitify that? I think the mere fact a simmer does certain acts ("ok mid-field downwind - carb heat on... point abeam - throttle 1700 rpm, maintain altitude while slowing to 80kts, first notch flaps below Vfe...") can be very worthwhile. One has to think about how to enter a hold... when to initiate certain actions during an IFR approach... I think laying down these thought processes a good thing.

 

Imo, the biggest concerns are things (you alluded or spoke of) practicing poor technique and not understanding what "abuse of the controls" means and the dire consequences it leads to... the stick and rudder aspects and flight model infidelity that creates false perceptions.

 

This causes the sim to respond in an unrealistic fashion when we approach that end range of travel.

 

I have no doubt this is true... I have not experimented with this as there was never the "need" to do this.

 

Btw, I applaud you for the spin training. I have done the same (well... spins were just part of the course) when Purdue University had a De Havilland Chipmunk. I think spin training should be part of every pilot training syllabus. Problem can be finding qualified instructors.

 

I'd imagine I've got a pretty clear picture in my head on what constitutes a spin legal/capable aircraft

 

Personally, you won't find me spinning an aircraft unless I can find spin approval in the Limitations (or elsewhere) in the POH. Example... the C172N model I instructed in allows spins in the Utility but not Normal Category. I think I was in a P model for initial CFI and boy that C172 really had to be coaxed into spinning. The C152 was certified in the Utility Category and appproved for spins. That nutty thing will "explain" to you (quite convincingly) how important it is to keep the ball centered during power-on stalls.

 

The Arapaho you mention is a twin... and no twin that I am aware of has FAA Certification for Spin Recovery... in fact light multi-engine aircraft do not have to demonstrate any ability to recover from any spin phase. Spin testing for twins consists of have a chute in the tail for the plane as well as one for the pilot. I considered Vmc demos the most hazardous aspect of any flight training.

 

again I agree that the chances are that someone who only flew sims previously, would probably not pull off a perfect greaser on their first try in the real thing,

 

No, I'd imagine initially they would be quite the bungler. But Chock, this is not what Dr. Zane is saying (if I understand him correctly). He's saying that practicing landings in the sim, unless they manage to stumble into proper technique, will really handicap themselves... they will "have to unlearn what they have learned" as the (poor) technique they use will work against what they really should be using. There's that nutty law of primacy "first learned, first remembered" that they will be battling with (probably with a couple other laws of learning) PLUS this motor pathway training he's referring to.

 

I have to agree that there is "truth" here or else full motion+ sim would be a complete waste of time & money. It only makes sense.

 

We're actually probably closer to agreeing on what each of us is saying

 

I think so too. Since the "original" Flight Simulator by Bruce Artwick, what it did best was IFR "stuff" like tracking a VOR radial (in that case).

 

So no... I do not believe for a moment a game like FSX can be a substitute for learning to fly (cannot imagine even making a statement close to this! as of course not!). However, I do believe there are many of aspects of flying that the sim, even a game like our MSFS, can be useful as a training aid.

[LAdamson 240]

The problem I think is that you're trimmed for like 80mph approach glide with engine at 1500RPM. It doesn't matter if the trim moves the whole surface deflection or not, because the center of your joystick is trimmed to mantain that AoA. Ok. The problem starts when you break the glide and starts flaring, your airspeed will problably go from 80MPH to life 55MPH before touchdown. You would of course not trim in the middle of the Flare, instead you would start bringing the Joystick back until you're settled to the ground.

 

The aircraft being out of Trim in FS is probably when things starts going bad with this technique of moving the whole surface instead of just mantaining the current position, because when you're full deflection with the elevator out of trim in FS, it's probably not the same aerodinamical effect than the full elevator in a real aircraft, that's why I think it's so hard to do those full stick back landings in FS, you probably have less elevator authority in FS because you'r eout of trim than in RL, so you just can't keep the nose up enough to make it do a full stall landing.

 

I've been testing a few FSX airplanes over the last few days. With the airplane trimmed for landing, there is no problem keeping the nose where I want it.

I don't run out of elevator. I even trimmed full down in the default Cessna 172, and was able to takeoff and land..........keeping the nose off the ground, until there just wasn't enough flying speed.

 

When I use the sim, I'll takeoff & begin climbing. I'll slightly release pressure on the stick, to "see" what the responce is, and the use the trim button to maintain the attitude of the nose, that I want. There is no reason to have trim at the up or down stops. What I'm saying, is that there is no problem......even if FSX is adjusting the elevator to mimic the tab. The biggest problem is the technical animation from an exterior view...........as in elevator is neutral, but plane wants to descend. As far as landings go, the point is to keep the nose at the landing attiude you've memorized. You don't just pull full back on the stick, just to do it. When I test these planes, I do use spot view........and keep holding the nose wheel off, until it just won't do it anymore.

 

L.Adamson

[zfehr 1]

Larry, you're cracking me up and getting too hung up on this. For most simming all this is just fine... I use it ALL THE TIME for that! The OP was asking for input regarding practice during the learning phase of landing in real life and I just couldn't let him think using the sim would be a great idea for that purpose and then gave the reasons. In the plane he will learn the proper responses and burn in that motor memory and be able to come back to the sim and have a great time re-living those real life experiences. Some of the aircraft are less evident of the trim problem than others so I imagine you haven't run into this with the simming you have been doing, this is all for fun anyway. I just want to make sure he (the OP) gets in the aircraft and learns those skills properly. I'm sitting here thinking you might not want to sit in the back seat with someone at the controls that has done the majority of their flare training in the sim and have just few real world landings under their belt. Safe skies to all of you. The computer sim remains the best all around value for training so many other skill sets.

[Alec 370]

Larry, you're cracking me up and getting too hung up on this. For most simming all this is just fine... I use it ALL THE TIME for that! The OP was asking for input regarding practice during the learning phase of landing in real life and I just couldn't let him think using the sim would be a great idea for that purpose and then gave the reasons. In the plane he will learn the proper responses and burn in that motor memory and be able to come back to the sim and have a great time re-living those real life experiences. Some of the aircraft are less evident of the trim problem than others so I imagine you haven't run into this with the simming you have been doing, this is all for fun anyway. I just want to make sure he (the OP) gets in the aircraft and learns those skills properly. I'm sitting here thinking you might not want to sit in the back seat with someone at the controls that has done the majority of their flare training in the sim and have just few real world landings under their belt. Safe skies to all of you. The computer sim remains the best all around value for training so many other skill sets.

 

I had to laugh about sitting in the back with a pilot that has done most of his landing training in Flight Simulator!

 

Perfect point, I think we have all reached a conclusion, and that is, for an experienced pilot, practicing in FS makes all the sense, since he knows what feels right and what don't, and would get him in trouble had he persisted in doing it. For a beginner pilot, like myself, not a good idea. Best to focus on real training, and using FS for fun until it can become a really useful tool, and I imagine that would be at least when I start doing Cross Country flights, even VFR, for the rivers, roads, mountains, time of flight, etc.

 

You have all given great input to this Post, and I thank you all for that.

[LAdamson 240]

I had to laugh about sitting in the back with a pilot that has done most of his landing training in Flight Simulator!

 

Perfect point, I think we have all reached a conclusion, and that is, for an experienced pilot, practicing in FS makes all the sense, since he knows what feels right and what don't, and would get him in trouble had he persisted in doing it. For a beginner pilot, like myself, not a good idea. Best to focus on real training, and using FS for fun until it can become a really useful tool, and I imagine that would be at least when I start doing Cross Country flights, even VFR, for the rivers, roads, mountains, time of flight, etc.

 

You have all given great input to this Post, and I thank you all for that.

 

You give up too easy. A FS armchair pilot, won't be left to their own resources, as there REALLY is, an instructor in the right seat. If your technique is wrong, then they will correct it. The trim issue, is a non-issue. As far as I'm concerned, that's really digging deep, to find sufficient reason. But.......if you're truly bugged by using a desktop sim, then by all means..........don't! You'll find instructors who believe that flght sims should be left off, during initial training. Of course, most of them really don't have much experience with a PC sim. Other instructors will say the exact opposite.

 

L.Adamson

[Alec 370]

You give up too easy. A FS armchair pilot, won't be left to their own resources, as there REALLY is, an instructor in the right seat. If your technique is wrong, then they will correct it. The trim issue, is a non-issue. As far as I'm concerned, that's really digging deep, to find sufficient reason. But.......if you're truly bugged by using a desktop sim, then by all means..........don't! You'll find instructors who believe that flght sims should be left off, during initial training. Of course, most of them really don't have much experience with a PC sim. Other instructors will say the exact opposite.

 

L.Adamson

 

I guarantee you, I won't stop using FS almost everyday, like I have for most of my life. I love simulators, and I have learned more from them than with a thousand books. But there's a different between making a flight in FS and using it to complement real world training. I never though FS could mimic real life aerodynamics, I was just curious to see if I could get some useful training to the thing I'm have most difficult right now, which is flaring technique. The Simmer fanatic side of my brain wanted to believe it could, that's why I asked, but the side of my brain that I'm training to become a real pilot is quite clear to tell me that there's no substitute for practicing in a real airplane, and I shouldn't try to find any other way to do it.

 

As soon as I'm able to do most of my landings decent ones, I will have some fun coming back to simulators and trying them the way I do it for real, but I won't be making TGLs to see if I can actually improve doing it in RL

[zfehr 1]

Alec, If I ever make it to Brazil or you make it up here to the Pacific NorthWest we are going to go flying for real :yahoo:

 

...and Larry, get up here so we can go visit the Vans factory at Aurora, I'm right next to it every Thursday for my club meetings (www.caapilots.com)

[Oracle427 45]

One of the best things that my instructor did for my pre solo landings was to take us away from our airport which is only 2940x30.

 

We headed over to another uncontrolled fields with a 6000x150 runway and proceeded to do approaches where I held the airplane just inches off the runway and then climbed away. In that prolonged state of flying I'm a soft field takeoff you get very comfortable with the sight picture in the flare just when you can no longer see over the nose

We killed more than a fewee bord

 

We killed a few birds with that stone.

 

The forum won't let me edit the post.

[Alec 370]

Alec, If I ever make it to Brazil or you make it up here to the Pacific NorthWest we are going to go flying for real :yahoo:

 

...and Larry, get up here so we can go visit the Vans factory at Aurora, I'm right next to it every Thursday for my club meetings (www.caapilots.com)

 

LOL :LMAO:

 

I would love to go on a fly of a GA aircraft in US airspace, must be totally different from what I'm used here. Probably way more stuff to check out before you can start the engine and announce intentions for takeoff

 

One of the best things that my instructor did for my pre solo landings was to take us away from our airport which is only 2940x30.

 

We headed over to another uncontrolled fields with a 6000x150 runway and proceeded to do approaches where I held the airplane just inches off the runway and then climbed away. In that prolonged state of flying I'm a soft field takeoff you get very comfortable with the sight picture in the flare just when you can no longer see over the nose

We killed more than a fewee bord

 

We killed a few birds with that stone.

 

The forum won't let me edit the post.

 

The airport my flight school is based has about the same runway as yours. I wish I could do the same exercise you did! Seems just the thing I needed for getting the perfect feel for the flaring of the aircraft. About the birds, the propeller must have some marks due to them heheheh

[Anthony1968 19]

I'm going to put things "back to front" here. I find that flying in real life has really improved my flight sim experience. Simulated landings have no bearing whatsoever on the real thing because there is no "sensation" and total lack of 3D perception. Even with the best add-ons AND the best photorealistic scenery the whole thing loses realism from about 50 ft from the runway surface. for me at least. Even my approaches are much, much better in a real aircraft. For example, on a real approach I can anticipate the need for an extra bit of power in plenty of time because I can feel the aircraft sinking long before it becomes an issue, in the sim I can only get this info from visual clues i.e my fixed point starts to rise or the PAPI's throw up a third red. FSX is excellent for many aspects of flying but the realism still has a long way to go. Am I making sense????

[Chock 17,769]

Yup, you are making sense. This has in fact already been touched on in this topic; those of us who fly for real 'fill in the gaps' that FS lacks, and gain a useful experience from the ability to do so when flying with FS.

 

Al

[Oracle427 45]

Alec, I actually suffered a bird strike a few seconds after takeoff a few days before solo. It was a frightening because a big flock of dove sized birds just popped out of nowhere and filled my view, followed by a loud thud.

 

I don't want to do that again. The cleanup a was very messy, yuck!

 

has your instructor introduced soft fields takeoffs yet? I think these are great for practice.

 

I used to get scared by chop and really tense up. Now I barely notice it, but remember to slow down.

 

Speaking of tensing up... Relax! I found that all my landings were very inconsistent until I relaxed and allowed the airplane to communicate with me through the seat. If you're tense, you're not going to feel the subtle forces acting on your body through the seat.

 

Lastly to address your original question. I prefer to use MS Flight to practice landings. it feels a lot better in there IMHO, but the conditions are still too ideal. In the end the best practice is RL. No sim I have used is capable of reproducing the turbulent air gusts generated by the nearby hills and the hangar buildings and patches of trees alongside a runway.

 

 

[Alec 370]

Hey guys!

 

It's been some time. Let me update you on my progress so far.

 

Yesterday I made my first SOLO flight!! YEAHHHHHHHH :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

 

The flight I made after writing this thread was exceptional! The first landing, wow, the instructor said it was captain material ahahahah, the following ones wasn't so good, but later he said I demonstrated the technique for safe landing, even though they werent' so butter smooth, and in his opinion I would be ready for the Solo.

 

Next flight I Got really anxious because I thought It might be the one I went solo if I did alright. 2minutes before boarding the plane I learned it would be a check of all the maneuvers I learned so far, nothing to do with landing, wow, I went in a hurry back to the hangar to read the maneuver procedures once again. That flight went fine, the landings wasn't that good, but the instructor said I was ready for the Solo, and we learned the next flight would be the Solo flight, he didn't know until we were de-briefing. He said I was ready for the Solo in his opinion and the next flight would be me going alone for some TGLs.

 

Then I went, What????? I won't practice some landings with an instructor first before he gets off the plane? No way... I wasn't feeling that secure, luckly my friend of university is also a CFI there and he came up with a solutioon, I would do some TGLs with him, and if OK, we would taxi, he would get off the plane, and I would do a Solo flight.

 

Yesterday we did exactly that, after 4 landings with him, he asked me to do a full stop landing, he told me some things I could improve, but we taxied to the hangar, he left the plane and asked me to take off for one landing, since there was already another student waiting for the next flight and I was using his flight time. Wow... That's a feeling you can't describe, the first time it's just you inside that plane. And some time later, Cleared for takeoff, rotation, and the aircraft flies though the sky with a climb rate which seemed double of what I used to, that second person really made a difference performance wise.

 

After a long Downwind leg due to traffic separation, I was back for landing. The flare was a little higher than it should have been, I didn't fight the plane from touching the ground as much as I should have, but it wasn't such a bad landing, just not a really smooth one.

 

When I got back I learned no one was watching for me landing, wow, they really believe in their students hahahahah. They did the traditional ritual for a Solo student to make me feel like I jumped inside a pool after throwing two buckets of water all over myself.

 

That's the story, I hope you like reading this huge text. I wrote it because I really feel you guys had everything to do with me doing this Solo flight. The mental picture of the Flare Attitude needed for a smooth landing I got from reading your texts and experiences, and the next flight I took it all made sense.

 

So, thank you!

[Great Ozzie 101]

Yesterday I made my first SOLO flight!! YEAHHHHHHHH

 

and :Applause:... oh and :drinks:

 

Glad to hear solo worked out. :Big Grin:

 

They did the traditional ritual for a Solo student to make me feel like I jumped inside a pool after throwing two buckets of water all over myself.

 

In this summer wx that would be nice! Here (in the States) we cut off the person's shirt tail. :o

 

Welcome to the Pilot's Club!

 

Rob

[Chock 17,769]

When I got back I learned no one was watching for me landing, wow, they really believe in their students hahahahah.

 

Instructors like to make you think that, it's somewhat traditional for instructors to feign disinterest when they let a student go for a solo, but trust me, he was watching it.

 

Anyway, congratulations and welcome to the club, great feeling when you get that thing on the deck on your own for the first time, isn't it? Makes you feel like the coolest person in the world, which at that moment. you are.

 

Al