Can't seem to loss speed even with the Spoilers out with AS2012

[Paul_Smith 92]

Relax, the guy was so far off the mark that a couple of percent either way on his idle was not going to make a blind bit of difference.

[Daveng3 0]

Whats O2 got to do with it?

[Spin737 102]

If people are so worried about TAI affecting their descent profile, then use TAI on the descent page.

[joolsd 10]

Stick to the basics, EGT and anti icing are all just distractions and do not matter until you control what the aircraft does instead of it controling you

.

 

It's not like I am new to flying this aircraft, as if I just bought it this week. I mean maybe the last flight wasn't great, come on admit it, we all remember that 'bad one' that we would rather forget. Of course there is plenty to improve on.

 

The reason why I started this thread is that of late things seem different. I thought rightly or wrongly that it might be AS2012. Why are the bad approaches just starting now?

 

I rembember before getting AS2012, getting alot of good landings in and generally good performance. I guess these type of things draw attention to things that could improve.

[rsvit 16]

It can be wind, pressure, temperature conditions and changes etc. I'm using AS2012 for long time and have no problems.

What weather engine did you use before AS?

[joolsd 10]

It can be wind, pressure, temperature conditions and changes etc.

What weather engine did you use before AS?

 

I tried REX for a bit, and that was ok, or just defalt VATSIM weather, from the servers.

They presented no real problems.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I really doubt this has anything to do with AS. I haven't noticed any issues with any of my aircraft after switching to AS2012. I'm with the others in my assumption that it's more of a technique thing. Experience in time has nothing to do with it. I understand you'd like to make that qualification ("it's not like I bought it yesterday"), but the fact of life is that it's not the experience, it's the value in that experience. I could rack up 10,000 hours flying in perfect weather, but that gets me nothing when I'm stuck in the soup. Furthermore, if I've been doing something improperly for those 10,000 hours, I might as well not have done it at all.

 

I'm not saying that to be mean. Rather, there are clear indicators (the improper use of A/I, the confusion as to what its application is, and its direct effects) that point to a lack of understanding of how to operate the plane properly. I'm not saying you don't know how to fly it. I'm saying there are indicators that point to you not being able to fly it realistically. If you're not flying it realistically, then it's not exactly a proper extension to expect realistic results.

 

As mentioned, using AI requires more thrust in order to get enough bleed to both provide heat and pressurized air, beyond what is necessary to move forward. For this reason, the engine idle must be increased to maintain that higher thrust demand. This higher idle translates to more thrust off of the fan, which means your idle descent is shallower. This is also why (as Matt mentioned) the FMC asks you when you expect to have it on and off on the DESC FORECAST page. If you tell it when you'll have it on, it will descend earlier to accommodate that.

 

The grand summary here, though, is that if you're going to hold the plane to the expectation of real world results, you must also hold your own piloting to real world procedures. Again, I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm simply saying there's room for improvement in your procedure, which will directly affect how the plane reacts to you.

 

 

 

The brochure from Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association does not or even imply to be relavant to all aircraft types. I am glad to see A/I is put on even though on the brochure those figures I suggested are not even mentioned. I see also you have introduced which I happen to agree with, a new " most likely limit (<+10 Celsius and visible moisture) " is this also from AOPA as I cannot it see it within the quote net alone the " Below 10K with visible moisture".

 

Dave, while I agree with your comment that the 10,000' reference has little to do with the issue, icing is indiscriminate.

 

Particular to flying, Icing affects anything with wings. They'll all accumulate ice the same without some type of de/anti-ice. It doesn't matter if it's a Boeing, a Ford, or a Cessna. That being said, there's absolutely no need to put any scope on that document because ice is ice. The solid state of water is pretty cut and dry: water + cold. It doesn't matter if it's cold air, cold ground, cold car, cold tree, or cold wing. You'll get ice.

 

While, yes, its applicability can be questioned since different planes have different systems in place to prevent or guard against ice, the brochure's definition of when icing is likely to occur is not an issue of the aircraft type, it's an issue of chemistry.

[Spin737 102]

The grand summary here, though, is that if you're going to hold the plane to the expectation of real world results, you must also hold your own piloting to real world procedures.

Well put.

[joolsd 10]

Again, I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm simply saying there's room for improvement in your procedure, which will directly affect how the plane reacts to you.

 

I don't doubt there is room for improvment, and I'm sure there is. I said before in a earlier quote, that this has highlghted somthings to look into with the ant-ice and bleed air etc.

Something which I wasn't aware of in procedures. Alot of the past year, like every one else, has been getting confortable with the AC. I said earlier before there is a lot of room for improvement.

 

 

Thanks for your help that was very well writtern.

 

Ok now for Ki Tak

[CaptCraig 226]

But is there anything I could do to slow myself down. I could look at a few things myself. At the top of descent for example, maybe I could slow down even more to 280K. Nice and low, then roler coaster down. Sometimes when ATC is waiting for you and he wants to go to bed. Sometimes you feel obliged not to keep him waiting.

 

I set CLIMB at 280kts, cruise is managed by ECON mode and the cost index I've selected (usually 17-18), and decent I select 270kts in the box. Try that out and use VNAV for decent. I haven't really had any problems with that. Those figures come from a real world Westjet pilot.

 

And yeah a high N1 is going to produce more power than a lower one, but I don't see anything wrong with an idle around 31-35 N1.

[joolsd 10]

I tried another flight tonight with very little AI and I was amazed at how well the descent was.

I need to learn the forcast page better still. I tried switching the wing ice on and of to see what happens, and if you listen carfully it does effect the sound of the engines.

 

Also I set the ECON at 270k and this was a nice descent.

[CaptCraig 226]

I tried another flight tonight with very little AI and I was amazed at how well the descent was.

I need to learn the forcast page better still. I tried switching the wing ice on and of to see what happens, and if you listen carfully it does effect the sound of the engines.

 

Also I set the ECON at 270k and this was a nice descent.

 

Yeah try out the 270kts on the decent from here on out and you shouldn't have an issue too many times. Just a touch of speedbrake should fix anything.

 

Yeah anti ice will spool the engines a touch as it's fed by engine air. You don't need anti ice unless it's below 10 degrees C and in visible moisture.

[Paul_Smith 92]

...Particular to flying, Icing affects anything with wings...

... water + cold...

Well yea, sort of...

Icing and ice are not quite the same from the piloting point of view. Flying through ice is like driving through hail. Its noisy and there is a risk of clogging something, but it doesn't stick or build up. This is what you might experience flying through clouds at higher altitudes.

Icing conditions involve liquid water that turns solid on contact, and the danger here is from the fact it accumulates. The rule of thumb of -10 to +10 below 10k is useful because above 10,000 feet, and below -10C there is very little liquid water that can freeze on contact with the airframe, and above +10C it is very unlikely to freeze.

[Daveng3 0]

Icing conditions involve liquid water that turns solid on contact, and the danger here is from the fact it accumulates. The rule of thumb of -10 to +10 below 10k is useful because above 10,000 feet, and below -10C there is very little liquid water that can freeze on contact with the airframe, and above +10C it is very unlikely to freeze.

 

Air France 447 disproves this theory and again where are you getting this information? other than OAPA.

 

Regards.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Well yea, sort of...

Icing and ice are not quite the same from the piloting point of view. Flying through ice is like driving through hail. Its noisy and there is a risk of clogging something, but it doesn't stick or build up. This is what you might experience flying through clouds at higher altitudes.

Icing conditions involve liquid water that turns solid on contact, and the danger here is from the fact it accumulates. The rule of thumb of -10 to +10 below 10k is useful because above 10,000 feet, and below -10C there is very little liquid water that can freeze on contact with the airframe, and above +10C it is very unlikely to freeze.

 

Paul, I agree with you about how airframe icing works. My question is the random 10,000'. I really don't see where that's coming from. It can be warm through 10 and icing can most certainly occur above it, as evidenced below.

 

Air France 447 disproves this theory and again where are you getting this information?

 

AFR447 and this: