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boeing247

Ye Olde Bank Angle Warning

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Modern aircraft's computer have functions to give a "Bank Angle!" warning, but what about early jetliners and propliners, before the days of FMC's? Did they have any sort of urgent warning systems (bank angle, low altitude, terrain) besides the stall horn?


-Bram Osterhout

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The old aircraft didn't have much basically was minimal protections and some altitude callouts. With GPWS, systems there are so many calls made depending on the configuration of the airplane.


Chris Miller

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Okay, thanks. I looked up the history of GPWS and found that it was developed due to a bunch of CFIT crashes in the 60's, so it would have come after the 707 or 727. Thanks again!


-Bram Osterhout

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Yeah the new EGPWS (pronounced E Jip Wizz) is the more advanced that came out in the 90's. Now almost all new aircraft have TAWS (Terrain Awareness Warning System) and TCAS Traffic Collision Avoidance System which give many various commands that the pilots have to react to.


Chris Miller

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so it would have come after the 707 or 727.

The GPWS stuff was actually fitted to the 707 and 727. Now that later EGPWS Chris mentions was not unless a company decided to heavily retrofit the plane. I don't know if that happened to 707 and 727s though. But I saw that some 737 received rather heavy mods.

 

With the E, e.g. the ability to read from a database was added, so the system is able to not only look ahead by using the radar altimeter and estimating the plane's trajectory but also knew about the actual terrain in front of the plane. I think most people mix that up as some kind of terrain radar, which it is not. That database reading is a passive element as there's no scan of terrain involved.

 

The only warnings being common on older planes would be some kind of takeoff config warning, that mentioned GPWS and all the things about the fire protection. Not to forget about the gear warning on the approach.

 

An old but advanced plane like the Concorde would have added some operational stuff, like out of range CG, temps and things. Perhaps some other planes also featured some special elements too. I think there was a wing bending relief system on 1011, perhaps being bound to some warnings when not activated.

 

Ok, here's my favourite warning. The 'don't sink' from the GPWS. Yes, I understood 'don't think' for quite a while. I really helped my flying. :blush:

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I suspected as such. Oh, and is there any sort of warning if the plane starts flying inverted? I don't think the stall horn would be activated in that case, and apparently you need GPWS for Bank Angle alerts. Although, I guess if the plane's upside-done, there's not really much need for an auditory warning.


-Bram Osterhout

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Haha, that's a good question. Well, the industry will ask back. Is there a need for a warning about the inverted flight?

 

As we recall, they usually only introduce systems which show a benefit over their development costs. By this, there may be a lot of useful and less useful things which never made it into production. One thing would be that autopilot mode being able to steer the plane without any flight controls and by thrust differences only.

 

As for the physics. If the plane is flying inverted, it's not stalling. You could stall it there of course. On the GPWS, don't necessarily connect the bank angle warnings to it. At least not on the old ships like the 707. The plane has GPWS, but it doesn't feature a bank angle warning in that case.

 

Ok, now to something being more fun. Check this one out. Tex Johnson, 'the man', doing a barrel roll in the 707. Not to be mixed up with a constant inverted flight though.

 

I also have some books describing that pilots rolled other commercial passenger jets (including Concorde!) on occasion and without damaging them, which doesn't work all the time. But there's no video about those things while the 707 case is featured. Enjoy!

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Nice! I came across a video yesterday of a pilot pouring iced tea while doing a barrel role in a twin-engine prop. Since a good barrel roll pulls a consistent +1G, you could close your eyes and not even know the aircraft was rotating.

 

And apparently a copilot for ANA once mistook a 737's rudder trim control for the flight deck door lock control and rolled the plane over, with passengers not even noticing that they were flying inverted for a few seconds.


-Bram Osterhout

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Here'a a clip of Roly Falk rolling a Vulcan bomber at the Farnborough Airshow in 1955..

 

 


Gerry Howard

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Ok, here's my favourite warning. The 'don't sink' from the GPWS. Yes, I understood 'don't think' for quite a while. I really helped my flying.

 

That's my favorite as well.

 

When we hear the 'don't think' call out we always laugh and say "We never do that's why we still work here!"


Chris Miller

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"We never do that's why we still work here!"

:LMAO: How do ATRs barrel roll by the way? Don't worry, Chris, we won't tell the company. :biggrin:

 

And apparently a copilot for ANA once mistook a 737's rudder trim control for the flight deck door lock control and rolled the plane over, with passengers not even noticing that they were flying inverted for a few seconds.

I think that's the Internet version of the story. The other one is here. http://www.flightglo...blunder-362687/ Check the video if you like. Not fully inverted but surely 'fun'.

The aircraft involved, a four-year old twinjet registered JA16AN, achieved an excessive speed of Mach 0.828 during the event and experienced forces of 2.68g.

..

There were 117 occupants on board the aircraft, five of them crew members, but only minor injuries were sustained.

Must admit, it looks very much like one of my normal flights. I wonder which warnings came up throughout the manoeuvre? :vava:

 

Nice video of the Vulcan's roll by the way. Thanks for posting.

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How do ATRs barrel roll by the way? Don't worry, Chris, we won't tell the company.

 

We did get some dead time in the sim and were able to test lots of fun scenarios. :lol:


Chris Miller

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I think that's the Internet version of the story. The other one is here. http://www.flightglo...blunder-362687/ Check the video if you like. Not fully inverted but surely 'fun'.

 

Haha! I don't remember where I read it, but I do recall it didn't strike me as a particularly reputable news source.

 

The warning that always gets me is "Pull up! Pull up!" I've gotten that warning due to a high sink rate while flying a few knots above stall speed. As if yanking up on the stick is just going to due you loads of good when you're going at that speed.


-Bram Osterhout

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We did get some dead time in the sim and were able to test lots of fun scenarios.

Ok, I will keep this secret. :P And envy you for that nice sim.

 

"Pull up! Pull up!"

They should change that into 'do something different then the thing which brought you here!'. :lol: Which leads us to the topic of sad GPWS voices. Check this one. He's very :( after 01:10. Although 'three hundred' sounds happy. Strange guy with mood swings.

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