Thank's for the the very comprehensive answer. But this assumeshandflying and most planes have autopilot, or? And what aboutflying above the clouds?

>Thank's for the the very comprehensive answer. But this>assumes>handflying and most planes have autopilot, or? Well I could be wrong, but I think most general aviation airplanes do not have autopilot. Some of the brand new Cessna 172's that I fly have autopilots, some do not. And the ones that do only have a 1-axis autopilot. Meaning that they can control only the ailerons. You still have to control the rudder, pitch, and trim. 2-axis and 3-axis autopilots are probably very expensive and add a lot of money to the cost of the airplane. I'm also not sure that you can effectively use the autopilot in the traffic pattern. At least I've never heard about anyone doing it.>And what about flying above the clouds?Well you're probably find while you're above the clouds, but what happens when you have to descend through the clouds to land?

>>Well I could be wrong, but I think most general aviation>airplanes do not have autopilot. Just about every (late)70's rental that I flew, did have a single axis auto-pilot.

The 45 point will be exactly 45 degrees from your heading bug position-or hsi in my case.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

Most of the C152s, C172, Warriors, etc., that the GA pilot is likely to rent will have neither GPS nor autopilot. And if they did have an autopilot, chances are that the old Stec or Nav-o-matic hasn't worked in several years. Though if you find a place that rents out new build planes, you can probably have those toys.As for flying above couds VFR, it is possible and legal...but foolish. One thing as a real pilot, instead of an FS pilot, you have to keep mind of is how safe your conduct of the flight is. If you make a habit of flying above overcast layers, you may very easily one day find yourself boxed into a situation that you cannot get out of. If you have mechanical problems, you will not know what is waiting for you on the ground, if the overcast layer is more extensive than you anticipate, you may find yourself running out of gas trapped above the clouds. I knew somebody from my former flying club who was non-instrumented rated and owned a Mooney. One day, he packed some camping gear into his plane, topped it off and took off for Idaho from Oakland. He was VFR only and was trapped above an undercast layer several hours later. The plane ran out of gas and he crashed and died.Certainly you can make use of a simple VOR radial and distance to find you 45 entry point. But why? In real life flying, you do not need to make it that restricted and complicated. It will only work if you happen to be approaching the airport from a very narrow sector unless you go far out of your way. You will find in real life that it is much easier to look out your window and fly a standard pattern entry visually. In real life, good airmanship will also mean that your habit is to actually circle above the airport above the pattern altitude to survey the wind, traffic, and even wildlife conditions at an uncontrolled airport. Once decided what traffic pattern to fly, descend outbound over the downwind area and then make a 90 degree turn and a 135 degree turn to enter the 45. It is the same maneuver no matter what airport you are at or from which direction to are coming from.

"The 45 point will be exactly 45 degrees from your heading bug position-or hsi in my case."Very funny.I mean determining where that 45 point might be for an airport you've never been to. I guess a terminal area chart may do it.

When VFR, your primary navaid is your eyeballs. BUT, get in the habit of using every available aid, regardless of which aid is primary on a particular sortie. For instance, in the sim, with the restricted visual cues, the beacon found on many of the approaches is a nice pointer when trying to get a viz on the airport, and when gaugeing the turn to final. The navaids on the panel give great hints when you are finding your way through strange VFR territory. Anyway, it is annoying to me to have the VOR's, GPS's, and ADF's pointing to nothing.

>>I mean determining where that 45 point might be for an airport>you've never been to. I guess a terminal area chart may do>it.You won't have to if you treat each airport you fly to the same by navigating directly to the airport, then descend outbound to just beyond the downwind and then making a left or right 90 degree turn and then a 135 degree turn to enter the 45.

I wasn't being "funny"-that is the procedure I use-in real world flying. You can do a lot of situational awareness by using your heading indicator-for instance the bottom is where you are and the top is where you are going.As others have mentioned -you will be primarily using your eyeballs to get set up for a pattern-at an uncontrolled overflying to check the windsock.However-when a ways out-setting the hsi the direction of the runway helps me visualize how the runway will lie as I approach it-and 45 to the left of its direction will be the approximate entry.The hardest to see is when you are approaching a runway nearly perpendicular to it-especially in a city with lots of buildings around it. Using the above procedure is helpful. It also helps visualize when you go to an airport with a huge amount of crossing runways going all different directions...http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

Thanks again guys for all the real-world knowledge. I'm sure once I get back in the real-world saddle and into heavy navigation I'll gain some new perspective on this.And yes, we generally navigate right to the airport and descend to the 45. Except for simulated engine-outs of course. 65!Steve - what do you mean by having the radios/etc. pointing to "nothing" ?CheersAndrew

>Most of the C152s, C172, Warriors, etc., that the GA pilot is>likely to rent will have neither GPS nor autopilot. And ifSo using the Autopilot and GPS in FS Cessna or similar planesmakes no realistic flightsimming.>above the clouds. I knew somebody from my former flying club>who was non-instrumented rated and owned a Mooney. One day,>he packed some camping gear into his plane, topped it off and>took off for Idaho from Oakland. He was VFR only and was>trapped above an undercast layer several hours later. The>plane ran out of gas and he crashed and died.>How could he make such mistakes. If you know were you are going you should know how much fuel is needed. And several hours in a smallplane that sounds difficult.>to actually circle above the airport above the pattern>altitude to survey the wind, traffic, Do you mean flying in a circle around the center of the airport?>and even wildlifeBirds? How serious would a collision be in a small GA plane?I think the big airliners can take it without problems.

>So using the Autopilot and GPS in FS Cessna or similar planes>makes no realistic flightsimming.Not necessarily. Current state of the art 172 or Pipers may have autopilots and even some glass cockpit (and definitely panel mounted GPS). Kevin is referring to the bulk of rental aircraft out there at thousands of US airports. An average age of a rental aircraft in US is something like 35 years ! >How could he make such mistakes. If you know were you are>going >you should know how much fuel is needed.Kevin is talking about a pilot who was trapped by weather below him so he could not descend. Obviously a case of poor trip planning.Michael J.http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

And I guess I'll address the rest of them.>>>to actually circle above the airport above the pattern>>altitude to survey the wind, traffic, >>Do you mean flying in a circle around the center of the>airport?>Yes. The purpose of the segmented circle is to aid a pilot circling above the airport assess the current arrival situation to decide which runway and traffic pattern to use. If our forefathers did not think pilots would circle around the center of an airport, they would not invent such a device, now would they?>>and even wildlife>>Birds? How serious would a collision be in a small GA plane?>I think the big airliners can take it without problems.>Deer. Lions. Elephants. A collision with such animals can be fairly serious to a small GA plane, and even to an airliner.

Andrew: By that, I just mean that they should be tuned to something useful, if possible, instead of just pointing off into the universe. Whether you are VFR or IFR, it is good to be able to get a quick fix or crosscheck to avoid becoming "temporarily disoriented". Have Fun - Steve

>Elephants. A collision with such animals can>be fairly serious to a small GA plane, and even to an>airliner.Agreed. I've seen several aircraft that were involved in incidents with wildlife at my own airport. Fortunately nobody was hurt (except for the animals, of course) in these incidents, but they were lucky.At 3CK, a Cessna Citation II impacted a deer on either takeoff or landing (can't remember which). The deer ran across the runway and got hit by the wing at a point close to the fuselage. This caused heavy structural damage to the wing root, and it ruptured the fuel tank dumping thousands of pounds of fuel on the runway. I saw the aircraft damage before it ws repaired. It was a big eye-opener.Pilots in the midwestern United States have to keep a constant lookout for flocks of geese during migratory seasons. A Cessna 172R that I used to fly (N72810) actually struck a goose while on final approach to runway 08 at 3CK. Although I did not see the incident, the student and instructor are lucky to be alive. The goose impacted the wing causing significant damage to the aircraft. The airplane had been a write-off, although I believe it was later repaired.