Hello All,Well, I guess I'm going to burst a lot of peoples bubbles on this one.I'm gonna take away the autoland, so, we'll forget the 747's. and just go for an early 737 or late 727, the later, of which I have a ton of real-life hours in.Could it be done? Of course -- anything is possible and the different skill levels of different individuals ranges from 0 to 100.Could you actualy do it? Being a non pilot, with only FS experience, probably not. FS does not set you up for real winds, wind shear, multi functions of an aircraft, (that IS why they have 2 pilots on board more difficult aircraft, ya know). One flies, the other does the simple things like set throttles, change the radios, talk with ATC, watch for traffic, and on and on.I haven't flown anything 'big' in a few years, and if I had to take over the controls, I amd sure I could do it . . . would it be pretty? Probably not. Would all souls get on the ground safely? Probably so. But again, it may or may not, be pretty and with MY skills a tad rusty, it could get ugly in a hurry, not to mention that if it was an aircraft that I wasn't checked out in, all would be new and strange, no matter how much I know what all the instrumentation was. Let's keep in mind, each model of aircraft flies a bit different than the other . . . and has its own good and bad points and nasty little habits. And, it's knowing these little pitfalls of a particllar aircraft which keeps them from lawn darting into the ground.Then you toss in the HUGE fear factor, the knowing that all those lives in the back are depending upon YOU. Enter the sights and sounds of the real cockpit . . . and the view out of the real aircraft . . . totally different than FS. Let's look at the engines, saying you have them at approach speed, and then you get hit with a tad, (just a tad, mind you) of wind shear. Real life jets don't spool up like FS, and if your a bit late, things happen to fall out of the sky, rather quickly . . . FS doesn't model stalls and spins very well at all. FS also doesn't have a real life stick shaker either, so when that yoke starts shaking and the buzzer goes off, it's panic time multiplied by 1000. I could go on, and on, but I think you're getting the point.Could a FS only pilot land a 737 or 727? Yes, if the God's were with you, you were one 'cool' individual and did your FS flying all by the numbers with a pro type yoke and pedals,and you had a streak of luck going for you like you just won a million in Vegas, yep, you could do it. Maybe!Is it likely? NO. Taking into mind that ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD IS POSSIBLE, WELL, YES, IT COULD HAPPEN, but the odds are against you.Could you fly an acceptable approach? IF you could get the AP to work properly, (keep in mind FS's AP isn't very close to most in real life), neither is the CS 727 by the way.In a nutshell, it is most possible to get it on the ground, that's where they all end up anyways. . Could you save all the souls in the back? Again, anything is possible. Could you do it without seriuosly bending the bird? Perhaps one out of 1000 Simmers could do that. The rest of you, no matter how good your intentions, would make a nice hole in the ground which smouldered for quite some time.It just isn't very realistic to think that one who flies FS, with a joystick and doesn't know all the many procedures or bad habits of a particular aircraft could bring it down in a panic situation and save the souls on board and not bend the aircraft. Please, no flames, I'm just trying to be brutally honest here.Would you at least know some of the instruments, procedures and equipment . . . YES. And, if everything went right, and I do mean EVERYTHING, IT IS POSSIBLE . . . but again, not very likely.I'm not trying to put real world pilots up on a pedestal, but pilots, even GA pilots who are really good, and can handle major incidents have hours upon hours of training, logged flight time and real 'one on one' instructors, real life check rides, (which they too fail sometimes), and even they buy the farm on a daily basis.I'll give you all this, though, I know most simmers would give it thier best shot . . . and some of the better ones, who fly with good yokes, pedals and throttles, and follow the numbers, just might get lucky and pull it off . . . and lastly, there is always that gifted individual who just has the touch and would make it look easy. But for the majority of simmers, MS joystick in hand, I fear we would be going to your funeral- -- saying what a brave and great guy or gal you were, but still attending your funeral no less.To be very honest with you, if I were put into a position, lets say a MD-11 or such in just that situation, most likely, we'd bring it home safe, with all souls alive . . . that is if I didn't have another heart attack due to stress and panic. As said, MY skills now, are a bit rusty, and I have picked up a few 'Bad habits' from FS which in an real aircraft would get me into trouble . . . but I also know that the lot of us, would give it the best try we could . . . and that is a item called courage . . . all in all simmers are a pretty great group, and there are a few out there who are 'naturals' and would surprise us all.I too am interested in the simmers vs simulator, in Denver. Perhaps I am wrong and just maybe we all are a wee bit more talented and skilled than I think. I do know this, for someone wanting to become a pilot, FS is a great tool to warm you up for flight school, and gives you and edge. For me, hey, I love it, as it is now, the ONLY way I can fly . . . and as we know, once the blue skies get into your system, you never get them out.Guys going to Denver . . . prove me wrong, kick that simulators butt! I do believe this is one of the greatest hobbies with some of the greatest people I have ever met . . . and I am proud to be one of you.Best to all,Clayton T.Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

AndrewI have not said in my posts that a simmer couldnt do it but that he would have to be a very special person to hold everything together.It is all to easy in the relative comfort of the bar to say "yeah no problems".How many times in flying clubs have armchair pilots pulled apart some poor guy who has had an accident saying "why did he do that. what idiot would mess up in that way".A different situation when you are in the sky on your own with everything going pear shaped.I was right seat with a pilot who after some missed approaches and a fuel transfer problem froze in a go around failing to respond to power, flaps etc. I had to grab the controls to avoid a stall situation in cloud.Yet brain overload is the basis of many accidents where pilots do stupid things and raises the bar chat of "what idiot would do that".Easy in the bar not so easy in the situation.I dont know you, maybe you are Mr cool or maybe Mr Mouth.Its like practising engine failures in a twin. I have had two real ones and I can assure you that no amount of simulated simulates the real thing.We are all different pilots included and most fly within their own limits and respect those limits.Its when you go out of those limits that problems occur.Self belief is great but fools gold without the experience, skills, and respect to go with it.Peter

All things being equal here, we're talking about whether a simmer could successfully get an airliner on the runway safely, not whether 9/11 factors become overwhelming and not whether you can evade F-16s.Let's assume for these purposes, there's no question as to your motives.Once we begin getting into all possibilities - what if a cat gets in the cockpit? - what if you lose 3 engines? - What if you're hit by a falling satellite? - What if all the passengers vomit, and you don't like the smell of vomit? - There's no reason to have to consider that for this exercise. Sure, it could happen in the real world. But we're talking about flying skill, not diplomacy here.Andrew

IS THERE A PILOT ON BOARD?http://stoenworks.com/Is%20there%20a%20pil...on%20board.html

Well I was there bright and early this morning but unfortunately my session has been delayed due to some communication/security issues. It now looks like it'll be the 24th before this pile-it gets to test this theory. Jay Eklund - Pilot 4332Senior VP Denver Operationshttp://www.pacificwestairways.com

Good find!

Hello All, again,Well, Hal's article is interesting -- would have liked for him to continue on till the end, . And, as I stated, it is, (as is anything), possible. For sure, if you were a Flight Simulator pilot, who used good equipment, understood navigation, and systems, and made a habit of flying by the numbers, then yes, you would have a chance to make it happen -- again, as Hal stated, it sure would beat your chances of just flying along unti you exhausted your fuel and letting nature take its course.Just don't forget, most of us, in that situation would have already need a pair of 'Depends' as our bodily functions probably would have left us embarrassed. It's a funny thing when you are in a situation that you know you are about to die -- in a milisecond, you go through the whole denial, rage, acceptance, and on and on thing that shrinks talk about so often. Having been in that situation more than once in my lifetime, (keep in mind I was a trained and flying USAF combat pilot during Vietnam), it's a tad easier to get your wits about you and you also knew what you were getting yourself into before the game began . . . but humans all allowed to be afraid, the difference between a 'regular' human being and a 'trained, for this situation' human is that we somehow try to sidestep the horror of the incident and get on with the job at hand. In other words, in my case, I just told myself I was dead already, so get on with the job and do your best. At least that worked for me, that and a very large amount of will power to survive.There are many of us who could be considered 'hero candidates' in a given situation. Even though I have been flying since I was 13, (that is a total of 45 years) I have always been amazed at listening to black box recordings of pilots, in a 'sure death' situation who still remain calm, cool and collected because they know That is THEIR JOB, and although they may not make it, someplace, a team of FAA tin kickers will figure out WHY their accident happened, if given a calm report of what is going on--and it may just save someone eles's life down the line.Anyways, off topic as usual.. and typing more than I should, it will always be an unknown UNTIL IT HAPPENS.Best to all,Clayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

Of course IF the aircraft is functioning perfectly and IF the weather is perfect and IF there's full communications then how in hell are all qualified pilots on board suddenly incapacitated while a few snot-nosed kids with some FS time aren't?About the only way that would happen is if there had been a major catastrophe in the cockpit (disabling both pilots) AND one in the cabin (disabling all others holding a license including positioning colleagues etc.) which miraculously did not affect you.Could I get it down? Sure, anyone can get it down (it'll go down by itself once the fuel runs out after all, else just point the nose to the ground).Could I get it down safely? If I got lucky, I'd probably stand a better chance than people who've never used FS because I know the basic instruments and for some aircraft a bit more but that's not enough by itself to fly the thing to a proper landing.

After reading the responses to this thread and thinking a little more about it, I guess I have to amend my earlier post.First, I still go with the fact that if their is no way to communicate, then everybody dies. Same for the weather and aircraft condition.The fear factor is a huge consideration, some will handle it, some will not. As a sim tech for Flightsafety I often have pilots ask if they can fly a sim of an aircraft that they've never flown. We used to get all the Dash 8, Jetstream and Metroliner guys who wanted to fly the 737 and 777. One interesting thing I have observed over the years with real commercial pilots is that there are two distinct types of pilots. One groups is numbers or science oriented and the other group is more..... shall we say artistic, seat of your pants flying. I have a feeling FS pilots are pretty much the same.I would put a metroliner (for example) pilot in the left seat of the B777 and he/she would immediatly begin to ask a million questions... Whats V1, Whats Vr....How do I do this, How do I do that... what's my approach speed, whats my weight, How do I set the speed bug..... one right after the other... they were so concerned about specifics that they couldn't fly..... it was so... I dunno... mechanical... they couldn't fly very well at all. The other group just flew..... they could feel when the aircraft was ready to rotate, feel the controls getting mushy when the aircraft was to slow.... in other words they were instinctive pilots and they flew very well.One last thing, to the person who said the ailerons are useless on approach and all that's used are power, pitch and rudders, sorry.... you do have roll control using the ailerons during approach. Ask any commercial pilot.just my thoughts :)

I agree with you Clay, the mental state if one would happen to find oneself in this kind of situation would most likely be shaky at best.I

Just to get my $0.02 in, I know one thing - somebody with a lot of FS experience would have a better chance than someone with no experience at all. How much better? Hard to say, but at the very least he'd recognize many of the guages and controls and would have a rough idea of what needed to be done and when it needed doing. The fear factor keeps coming up in this discussion, and it's definitely part of the equation. However, theres another important emotional factor that would come into play - the "self-preservation" factor. The guy trying to land the plane knows that if he fails, he's dead too. I've read stories about people in these sorts of life and death scenarios and they don't always respond the way you or I might expect. Often, the adreneline kicks in and they go into a sort of focused "work the problem" mode - in fact, I believe I've read that this is actually a biological response to extreme danger. We're biologically programmed not to go into a state of panicked catatonia in emergent situations. Now that certainly doesn't mean we'd have any sort of easy time landing the plane here. But I do think it's possible that fear might not be so much of an issue as we might think. Chances would be greatly inproved too if the plane were say 800 miles out over open water and you had alot of time to kinda get familiarized with the environment and to make contact with someone on the ground and so forth. If the plane was a few minutes from the runway when you took the seat, you'd likely be in for a really rough ride...

We're biologically>programmed not to go into a state of panicked catatonia>in emergent situations. >>You've never heard of stagefright then? I mean the fact that people just freeze like a rabbit in the headlights when the curtain opens!The sort of situation when everything you know and everything you remember just dissapears from memory! No-one is "programmed" for that!Timhttp://www.fssupport.com/maam_sim/maamsim_logo.gif

And you've never heard of people reacting remarkably calmly in situations of extreme stress? I'm not saying everyone would react the same way. I'm just saying not everyone would necessarily freeze......and I wouldn't call "stage fright" a life and death situation, would you?

>...and I wouldn't call "stage fright" a life and death>situation, would you?No I wouldn't and thats the point! I have been flying commercially for 30 years and I have seen experienced pilots "freeze up" when faced with a situation that has been practiced over and over in the sim. They may only freeze for a second or 2 before they switch to autopilot mode but nevertheless. It doesnt happen all the time, in fact it's rare but it can happen. There are no doubt people who are capable of handling situations thrust upon them in a calm manner and that was part of the point on my earlier post on the subject. The ability to compartmentalise the situation and deal with one thing at a time logically and not be overwhelmed by the totality of the situation would be an advantage. I still maintain that the very act of putting an aircraft the size of a modern airliner on the ground safely at the first attempt dealing with crosswind, windshear and a host of other problems would be beyond the capability of 99% of flightsimmers with zero real flight experience, and that was the subject of the orignal post I believe. If you are convinced you can do it then I personally believe you are deceiving yourself. An accident is a combination of factors usually, one small thing leads to another small thing etc etc, It doesn't take long before the situation is "lost". I don't blame people for thinking they could handle the situation, maybe some will get away with it and of course it's always better to try than to do nothing. The confidence of youth is an amazing thing. It's a bit like driving, everyone who drives is convinced they are the best driver on the road. we can't all be can we?Also if it was me in and the situation arose on say a 747 it would be even more intesting due to the fact I'd probably gave a couple of large gin and tonics inside me at the time as well! If the situation ever happens to you on board an 747 or suchlike I wish you every success. If it were me, I'd hope someone who was type rated would also put there hand up when the announcement was made "Is there a pilot on board"! I'd be more than happy to assist him in the right seat!CheersTimhttp://www.fssupport.com/maam_sim/maamsim_logo.gif

"If you are convinced you can do it then I personally believe you are deceiving yourself."Ok, fair enough - your choice for the person who gets behind the yoke:1) Someone who is convinced that they can do it2) Someone who is convinced that they can't do itPick!;)