From a buddy who is on the B737-800 - CAT C for straight in approaches, CAT D for single engine and Cirlcing Approaches. Some airlines may do it differently.

 

For the approach coming from the north and able to slow to 185 KIAS I would most likely make a left turn at BRI to heading 274 until 8 DME then turn inbound to intercept the LOC. I would fly this approach using raw data. The FMS is nice, but raw data is much easier and cleaner in a lot of instances.

 

Billy Bluestar

Left turn to 274? Why left and why 274?

I was going to post then had a look at your chart and saw it was UK. I have no real world European experience, but I've only had to fly the full procedure twice in the last year and both times were VOR approaches to uncontrolled airports. Everywhere else, even with a published procedure turn, Approach had vectored me to a 30 degree intercept for final and cleared me for the approach. I would guess mostly because they don't want to waste the time it takes for traffic to do the full procedure and the idea they would have to hold or vector the other traffic while each plane completes its full approach.

 

Now the biggest iron I fly is a mooney, but I can't see many 737s running approaches into unpowered or uncontrolled fields requiring the full turn. Fun to learn I guess, but not really practical in the heavies.

 

Even when my home airport is closed KMKG, Chicago center takes over the frequencies for Muskegon approach and tower and handles the vectoring....I gotta quit flying home so late

Now the biggest iron I fly is a mooney, but I can't see many 737s running approaches into unpowered or uncontrolled fields requiring the full turn. Fun to learn I guess, but not really practical in the heavies.

 

I'm sure many will find examples, but I can provide 2 the 737 does fly. They are both modifications of the typical procedure turn, but nonetheless are circling approaches. First is in Chicago, MDW will frequently use ILS31C circle to land (typically 22L) to avoid conflicts with ORD approach traffic. Second are the LOC/DME approaches in to Innsbruck. The DME east procedure requires you to essentially fly an extended procedure turn if landing on runway 8 (in a valley surrounded by 9,000' mountains). The DME west procedure requires either a single or double 180 degree turns if landing runway 26 or 8 respectively.

 

Others may be able to provide examples where the formal procedure turn is used. Also, the 737 techincally is not a heavy. I think the rule is MTOW >240,000 lbs, but I might be off on that number. Either way, the 737 doesn't technically make it there.

 

Eric Szczesniak

 

 

I'm sure many will find examples, but I can provide 2 the 737 does fly. They are both modifications of the typical procedure turn, but nonetheless are circling approaches. First is in Chicago, MDW will frequently use ILS31C circle to land (typically 22L) to avoid conflicts with ORD approach traffic. Second are the LOC/DME approaches in to Innsbruck. The DME east procedure requires you to essentially fly an extended procedure turn if landing on runway 8 (in a valley surrounded by 9,000' mountains). The DME west procedure requires either a single or double 180 degree turns if landing runway 26 or 8 respectively.

 

Others may be able to provide examples where the formal procedure turn is used. Also, the 737 techincally is not a heavy. I think the rule is MTOW >240,000 lbs, but I might be off on that number. Either way, the 737 doesn't technically make it there.

 

Eric Szczesniak

 

 

Got it, though a circle to land isn't a procedure turn. A procedure turn is a course reversal used to put you on course prior to the FAF and is obviously done outbound beginning on the reciprocal of the inbound radial. Most of the charts will also show NoPT when coming from a fix that is within 30 degrees of the final approach course as its not needed to set up. Some, such as the iLS at KLGB are NoPT from any direction as it would interfere with other traffic to other facilities.

 

Circle to land is part of any of the approaches when available and separate minimums will be published on the chart, but that happens at the end of the approach, when landing environment is visible and you're using another runway usually because the winds are more favorable and the othe runway either has no approach, or has one with higher minimums and the weather is too low for it.

 

Example, you want to land at XYZ, winds are 180 @ 25, ceiling is 400. Rwy27 has an ILS that will take you to 200ft AGL and circling minimums are 400 on that approach. The VOR18 approach has a ceiling of 600. You would take the ILS27 circle to land 18, but again, that has nothing to do with a procedure turn.

 

Yes, wasn't using heavy in the terms of designation, just in heavier than what I fly. Bad choice of words considering its appended to th weight class.

The category of aircraft depends on the the Vref (which of course changes depending on weight).

• Category A: Speed less than 90 knots.
  
• Category B: Between 91 and 120 knots.
  
• Category C: Between 121 and 140 knots.
  
• Category D: Between 141 knots and 165 knots.
  
• Category E: Speed 166 knots or more.
  

Therefore, the 737-800 can be either C or D.

 

Sam Kharey

 

You mention the speeds based on Vref. My manuals give a different definition of being based on Vat and that is defined as "VAT speed at threshold based on 1.3 times stall speed VSO or 1.23 times stall speed Vs1g in the landing configuration at maximum certificated landing mass".

 

Vref is based on other factors such as maneuver margin, tail clearance, etc. Not just Vat. I don't know the numbers, but the 737-800 is generally classified as a Cat C aircraft. Some operators or states may fly it as a Cat D for some reason or another. But I don't believe the Category of the aircraft can change dynamically as it is based on gross weight.

Hi Billy,

 

Please refer to the approach plate for runway 9 found on page 26:

 

http://www.google.ca...q8pV1Y-UnFYAw1g

 

Assume that my aircraft is situated due north of the VOR, and I am flying towards to VOR at say, heading 180 (south). How exactly would I fly the procedure?

 

Do I overfly the VOR, fly outbound on radial 135, and make the turn to intercept course 270 back over the VOR, and then 284 to eventually join the ILS?

 

If so, how do I set the part in red above in the FMC of the NGX?

 

Thank you,

Sam Kharey

 

There are different ways of looking at this:

 

The most stringent is to overfly the BRI and turn left, fly QDR 135 for 1:15, continue left to join QDM 090 then the base turn procedure over BRI QDR 290 to I-BON 8 DME, left turn to intercept the ILS. If there were traffic on the approach then take up the hold.

 

If there is no traffic and cleared for the approach, take advantage of the FMS flyby waypoints and create a point 1.5 nm East of BRI, fly to that and just the right for the base turn procedure. As long as you are above the MSA this is not an issue. What is crucial is that you are established on the QDR 290 within 5º before you descend below MSA. In reality you will probably be over BRI at around 4-5000' in order to make a constant descent without level off.

 

If you need to join the hold. Press the HOLD page on the CDU, press NEXT HOLD, select BRI from the legs into the scratchpad, enter into the HOLD prompt and confirm the hold details and speed (you want to be near clean speed as this is max endurance speed) and EXEC. Slow down before 3 mins into the hold.

 

When you want to leave the hold there are a couple of options. When outbound (the 274º leg), goto the HOLD page in the CDU and select EXIT HOLD and EXEC. This will tell the FMS to fly the 135º procedure turn, but this is ineffecient. Better would be to fly the altenative procedure. The problem is that the FMS may not have this transition in the database, so EXIT HOLD would not work, when outbound just use HDG SEL on the MCP to hold the track with standard wind deviation. In the CDU LEGS page, bring up the FAP waypoint to the top and enter the INTC on the bottom right of the CDU as 094 to make an intercept to the final approach. Just use HDG SEL to maneuver the aircraft after 8DME IBON onto the localiser.

 

 

As BRI is the IAF, you technically could start the procedure at 240kts, but clean speed would strike a better balance between managability and efficiency. Overflying BRI at 180 would be a bit too cautious.

Left turn to 274? Why left and why 274?

 

The 274 heading is the heading for the outbound leg of the holding patten. Per the IAP I have the option of flying the depicted Holding Pattern in lieu of the Procedure Turn as long as I meet the 185 KIAS speed restriction.

 

Billy Bluestar

The 274 heading is the heading for the outbound leg of the holding patten. Per the IAP I have the option of flying the depicted Holding Pattern in lieu of the Procedure Turn as long as I meet the 185 KIAS speed restriction.

 

Billy Bluestar

I'm not that familiar with approaches in the UK, so I've got educated guesses. What is the reason for the 135 course-reversal?

 

Coming from the north, you'd probably do a parallel entry for the hold, no? Then it would be a right turn, then a back to the NDB then outbound.

 

I think most airline pilots would be thinking, "What is going to use the least amount of fuel." I'd go for the base turn, since it's the most direct.

I'm not that familiar with approaches in the UK, so I've got educated guesses. What is the reason for the 135 course-reversal?

 

Coming from the north, you'd probably do a parallel entry for the hold, no? Then it would be a right turn, then a back to the NDB then outbound.

 

I think most airline pilots would be thinking, "What is going to use the least amount of fuel." I'd go for the base turn, since it's the most direct.

 

The 135 course reversal is for the those who can not slow to 185 KIAS or those who for whatever reason (weather) choose to fly the reversal and then fly the teardrop.

 

Based on reading the various charts it appears everyone IFR would be on an arrival route. Normally I would turn right (see earlier post) and parrallel the LOC outbound. It appears the chart wants the pilot to either fly the course reversal (135/teardrop) or the left turn at BRI. I certainly could be wrong, but I would not turn right without ATC approval. It is very possible that ATC is trying to protect airspace to the SW which would preclude the right turn.

 

I will check with our resident TERPS expert and see what he thinks.

 

Billy Bluestar