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1Wolf

Need a little IAP help

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I was hoping I could get some help understanding the following approach plate and how to handle performing the procedure under the set of circumstances I'll mention below.

 

Its been years since I've flown a real aircraft and I never did continue to get my instrument rating. I've always stuck to VFR in FSX and so IFR flight is a bit new to me. My interest in FSX though has given me the desire to use FSX to learn. I've been reading the FAA published Instrument Handbook along with the tutorials in FSX.

 

I'm a little confused by this IAP...

 

http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1302/pdf/00602T14.PDF

 

Let say, for sake of example, that I am located somewhere near those two towers just west of the KNSE field (Height of the two towers I refer to is 644 and 660. I am currently flying a heading of 345 towards point TROJN to conduct the non-precision approach for RWY 14.

 

My understanding is that the procedure starts over the IAF (TROJN) at or above 3000'. At that point, I should be flying an inbound course of 127 on R-307 and proceeding to the FAF (ALANS) while descending to reach 1700' before the FAF.

 

My question is....

 

If my heading (as described above) is 345, what is the proper way to get turned around and intercept R-307 inbound? Its kind of a tight turn as I'm coming at it from south of it. Should I just carefully time my turn to intercept that radial? Or should I NOT be turning that tight, and instead using the "Hold" depicted on the IAP to get turned around?

 

That is the part that confuses me. Its not a "Procedure Turn" and its outside of 10nm from the field, according to the legend its a "Hold". I'm not sure if I should NOT be using a "Hold" unless ordered to?

 

If I am indeed supposed to use that Hold to get turned around, the FSX Learning Center lessons teach you how to perform a "Direct" entry into a Hold so I think I understand how I should enter. It looks like I should cross the 15 DME fix on the north edge of the Hold and perform a left standard rate turn to get turned around to intercept R-307 inbound on a course of 127. Then, once I cross TROJN I should begin descending down to 1700 for the FAF (ALANS).

 

So, in a nutshell, if you were over those towers I mentioned (The ones west of the field) on a course of 345 heading towards the IAF (TROJN), what would be the correct way to conduct the procedure for RWY 14?

 

Thanks!

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Use hold, with teardrop entry, you do not need that 15dme as you are going to exit after half of pattern. So after TROJN, fly heading 337 for one minute, than standard rate turn to intercept navaid R307 inbound. Im not sure how you can use TACAN in FSX? Never knew there were TACANS installed in FSX.

Also, keep in mind that is an offset approach.

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This is how I would fly it, others may have a different view: Its been awhile since I flew a TACAN approach.

If you have a way to find TROJIN, then go direct TROJIN do a teardrop P/T (depart TROJIN on 337 heading for 1 minute then left turn (standard rate turn) back to intercept the 127 inbound) on the holding pattern side (stary within 15 DME) track the TACAN inbound. Maintain 3,000 until TROJIN inbound then descend to 1,700 at ALANS and after ALANS descend to 540 with M/A at LUZZE..

 

Billy Bluestar

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Thanks!

 

That's exactly the info I was looking for. I've got a little diagram in the FAA Instrument Handbook that I'm supposed to use to determine which entry to make...so when I read what you guys said, and then tried to imagine flipping that diagram to match in my head (Its always tricky for me to spatially imagine some of these things), it made sense why you chose the Teardrop. Initially I had chosen the Direct entry because I was focusing on the far fix (The 15 DME one) instead of near fix (TROJN). When I saw what you guys chose (Teardrop) and realized you were basing it off of the near fix...when I compared it to my diagram it made much more sense.

 

Also, thankyou for including even the headings that you'd fly. That really made it easier to see in my head.

 

Do you "choose" to use the Hold and do a Teardrop entry because you WANT to? Or is it required? Is there any situation where you'd just make the hard turn to the right to try and intercept the radial instead of entering the Hold?

 

If using the Hold is indeed optional (you can ignore this question if its mandatory) what are the guidelines or rules of thumb you'd use to determine when you'd use the Hold and when you'd just intercept the radial directly without any sort of Hold?

 

There isn't an actual "Procedure Turn" on the IAP and there is no "NoPT" notation on the IAP to preclude one. My understanding is that a Procedure Turn is not authorized unless its depicted on the IAP...however...on the IAP I chose as an example...its not really a Procedure Turn...its a "Hold".

 

So is choosing what you guys selected (Teardrop entry into the Hold to use it as a Procedure Turn) what one might call "Hold in lieu of Procedure Turn"?

 

Thanks! Hopefully that makes sense. Sometimes the stuff in this FAA Instrument Handbook is a bit dry and hard to grasp ;)

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Hi, 1Wolf...

 

I recognize you from CPS, and I most certainly recognize that approach chart! :smile:

 

A hold point frequently doubles as a turnaround location, in which case a procedure turn is redundant and unnecessary. Depending upon the hold orientation and your inbound heading, one of the following three hold entries will be appropriate: direct, teardrop, and parallel. Correct hold entry is tested on the instrument written and practical tests. The best (by far) explanation I've ever seen for it is on this web site:

 

http://www.bruceair.com/

 

In the menu at the top of the page, click on "Pilot Goodies" then scroll down to "Visualizing Holding Pattern Entries". It's clean, simple, and it works!

 

See you in the CPS skies,

Burger

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That holding pattern is nothing more than a procedure turn. One way or another, its there to help you to lineup for approach.

And yea, its actually a good question, do I have to do a turn if Im inbound to TROJN at R307 and at 3000ft. Whole hold is bolded as part of approach there is no NoPT that would not permit me to do it, but does it mandatory or not?

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I'm not an instrument rated pilot but I believe if your turn inbound is less than 90 degrees from where you were you don't have to to the HILPT.

 

Also from an ATC side if I cleared you for that approach and added " straight in" you wouldn't need to perform the Hold In Lieu of Procedure Turn.

 

Example:

N12345 cleared tacan ry14 approach straight in

 

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I recognize you from CPS, and I most certainly recognize that approach chart! :smile:

 

Yup. Flying BasicInst2...I could do it and it was easy enough, but the way the mission was having you do it just didn't seem to make sense to me when looking at the IAP. To go all the way out to TROJN just to make a hard nearly 180 deg turn to come back inbound on the recipricol didn't seem right. So I wanted to find out the "correct" way to do it.

 

A hold point frequently doubles as a turnaround location, in which case a procedure turn is redundant and unnecessary. Depending upon the hold orientation and your inbound heading, one of the following three hold entries will be appropriate: direct, teardrop, and parallel....

 

Understood. However, usually Procedure Turns are specified within 10nm of the field and its not technically a Procedure Turn, its a Hold out at the IAF (TROJN). So my question is largely concerned with what is correct. My understanding is that if a Procedure Turn isn't specified on the IAP then its not authorized. No Procedure Turn is specified but there is a "Hold" depicted at the IAF.

 

So my question is....when approaching TROJN from the South...what is the correct procedure?

 

1) You MUST use the Hold to use it to get yourself turned back around. Thus, from that direction and position you'd use a Teardrop entry exactly as was specified earlier in this thread. i.e...over TROJN turn to HDG 337, fly it 1 minute, then standard rate turn to the left to get established on 127 inbound.

 

2) You MUST NOT use the Hold because a controller didn't instruct you to do it, and no actual "Procedure Turn" is depicted on the IAP, and thus, no Procedure Turn is authorized. So instead, you must ignore the Hold and make a pretty hard turn from HDG 345 to get turned back around over TROJN and established on 127 inbound. It would have to be a fairly hard turn.

 

3) You "May" use the Hold, "In Lieu of Procedure Turn" at pilot's disgression. It doesn't require any special instruction from ATC, and because its not an actual "Procedure Turn"...you can use the Hold as necessary to get yourself established on 127 inbound. So, as Ryan mentioned, perhaps you'd use the rule of thumb that if you need to turn tight like that...then thats when you should be using the Hold.

 

And thanks for the link...I'll definitely check that out!

 

That holding pattern is nothing more than a procedure turn. One way or another, its there to help you to lineup for approach.

And yea, its actually a good question, do I have to do a turn if Im inbound to TROJN at R307 and at 3000ft. Whole hold is bolded as part of approach there is no NoPT that would not permit me to do it, but does it mandatory or not?

 

Yup...you guys did a good job of answering my question on "how" to use it. That teardrop entry makes perfect sense...I tried it in the Sim...and it worked well. Thank you!

 

I'm still trying to determine what the 'correct' procedure would be..whether its Mandatory to use the Hold, Mandatory to NOT use the Hold, or Optional.

 

I'm not an instrument rated pilot but I believe if your turn inbound is less than 90 degrees from where you were you don't have to to the HILPT.

 

Also from an ATC side if I cleared you for that approach and added " straight in" you wouldn't need to perform the Hold In Lieu of Procedure Turn.

 

Example:

N12345 cleared tacan ry14 approach straight in

 

Gotcha. Thanks Ryan! Makes sense. I understand that if ATC cleared me for that approach and added "straight in" that I would not need to use the Hold....however....if you're aircraft is out nearly at the IAF (TROJN) and on a heading of 345....you still need to get turned around to come straight in.

 

So the question remains...whether its mandatory to use the Hold because its depicted on the IAP, its mandatory NOT to use the Hold, or its a pilot's disgression sort of thing. Maybe there is no real "procedure" that you're supposed to do and your only job is to get established inbound on course 127....whether you do that by a hard turn from HDG 340ish to HDG 127 or whether you use the Hold to get turned around is up to you.

 

Just for the sake of simplicity, maybe we can take ATC out of the equation and assume that the field depicted is an uncontrolled field.

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You have to perform the hold if its in bold, and your would be turn inbound is more than 90 degrees.

 

Also you'd fly the hold regardless of your degrees required if you needed to descend in the hold for terrain reasons.

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