New system, help picking cpu

[jjcruz78 0]

Verybumpy,

 

At stock yes, but who is going to get a K part to run it a stock.........he he he

 

 

 

 

Happy Flying!!!!

[meshman 109]

I still have no idea if I'd be better off with a 4770K Haswell or a 3770K Ivy Bridge, or with something else.

 

I think either of these chips will do a good job for you, especially with X-Plane that will utilize hyper-threading, unlike FSX.

 

There's been comments about heat being more of an issue with Haswell compared to Ivy Bridge, but these seem to come from people who want to wring every last bit out of a system. Haswell is also on a new motherboard layout and chipset. There will be issues of motherboard / chip set manufacturers getting BIOS working properly and to their fullest capabilities. Any time there is some thing new in hardware there will be "teething" issues. Ivy Bridge has been out and gotten past it's teething issues and appears to be a slightly cooler running system.

 

So your question to answer is, do you want a little better performance (10~) with possible upgrading of BIOS or do you want almost as good of performance coupled with fewer headaches? Either system when matched with good supporting RAM, mobo and video card should yield good results.

[jjcruz78 0]

Arwen,

 

    Let me ask you, Are you going to use your computer for something else demanding like video editing (beside FSX) ?

 

  The reason been Ivybridge-E is around the corner (September or October) and it will be more future proof for X-plane. Hopefully it will also be solder. IMO

[Ben Cap 89]

         So, I follow hardware really close I know what I'm talking about.

 

 

Thanks for letting me know.  :lol:

 

 

Right jjcruz78?

 

:LMAO:

[SAAB340 28]

He found that it doesn't really matter what type of CPU you have, and whether it has 1 core, 2 cores, 4 or 8 etc... There was only a direct correlation between raw CPU speed and FSX frame rates. I.e. a single core CPU overclocked to 4.0GHz (for example) would outperform an i7 CPU running at 3.5GHz (for example).

That's simply not true since SP1. I've done very rigorous testing myself. FSX needs 3 cores t give you maximum FPS. You get up to 70% boost going from single to dual core. Adding the 3rd core stops your FPS from dropping 1/3rd at times. Adding further cores will speed up terrain+grundtexture loading and load times but won't improve FPS.

 

I can also say that the IPC improvment between i7 Haswell and i7 3930K SandyBridgeE is 17% in FSX. So Haswell@4.3Ghz = SandyBridgeE @5.0 Ghz when it comes to FPS in FSX.

[Ben Cap 89]

 

 

   The problem as I said multiple times is:

 

You are missing the point. Recommending a 2+ year old product doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

Also, since you are so clung to the idea that these chips don't OC well, a Haswell would only need to be pushed to 4GHZ to equal a SB @ 4.8-4.9GHZ.

 

There is no reason why anyone should be buying older CPUs anymore. - It is illogical and a waste of money. 

[jjcruz78 0]

 Ben,

 

       Really!!!! the IPC (instruction per clock is only on average 15% faster than sandy and yet you are saying a 4.0 ghz is equal to 4.8-4.9 ghz really!!!!    

 

     P.S. You guys are really something else Ignorance is bliss....  

[SAAB340 28]

I'm waiting to get confirmed how IvyBridge perform IPC vise against Haswel in FSXl at the moment. When it comes to regular SandyBridge Vs IvyBridge I see no need to buy the older Sandy as Ivy has a much better memory controller so the faster RAM you can use combined with the small IPC increase makes up for the lower overclock there. And you get PCIe3.0 as well.

[Arwen 289]

Thanks guys, that helps a bit. Thanks!

 

Here's a bit more, to explain why I thought that a Haswell would be a good choice for me:

 

The reason that I wanted a Haswell i7-4770K, was so that I could have it overclocked by 10 to 15% AND because X-Plane 10 (and other programs that I use) do make use of hyper-threading. If I understand this correctly, a 10 to 15% overclock would be like 4.3 to 4.5GHz, and that's all I really want. If the 4770K is roughly 14% faster than the 3770K (which is what some comparison tests are showing), a 4770K @ 4.3 to 4.5GHz should give roughly the same results as a 3770K @ 4.9 to 5.1GHz. Right?

 

I'm planning on a system with a CPU liquid cooling system (either the Thermaltake Water2.0 Pro, or the Corsair Hydro H100i), a better/tougher motherboard, and a case that has really good air cooling. So, with all that, shouldn't a Haswell CPU, overclocked to 4.3 to 4.5GHz stay cool enough?

 

I've been doing a lot of research about things like FPS in sims/games, and (other than perhaps FSX), the CPU speed is just one of several factors. For today's graphic-intensive games, the GPU is at least as important. And the amount of memory and its speed is also rather important. What seems to be important is that a system is well-balanced, so that there is no single factor that is causing a bottleneck (like not enough memory)

 

jjcruz78, I can't even afford a i7-3930K system, and wouldn't the 6-core Ivy Bridge-E be even more expensive? A really good Haswell system is about the most I can afford. Plus I really don't want to wait another 3 or 4 months (or more), since I've already been waiting for months for the Haswell to be released.

[flyaway 11]

First of all thanks to everyone who has replied to the post.

Gotta agree with arwen, it aint easy to make a choice here.

Before I read the posts I was thinking of going for the 4770k (no delidding) and get a water cooler so it brought me to concur with Ben's post.

I was thinking about getting something like the corsair h100i, what do you guys think.

However I would be highly disappointed if I cant pass the 4.3ghz mark like jjcruz said. It concerns me a lot. I would love to see the cpu rocking hard at something like 4.7 4.8 ghz to really convince myself Im surpassing any pairing chances with Ivy or Sandy.

My question, do you really think Im getting that clock frequency with that water cooler or it's a waste of time and money.

Thx again

 

Ha, this tapatalk app sucks lol!

[Ben Cap 89]

 

 

    Really!!!! the IPC (instruction per clock is only on average 15% faster than sandy and yet you are saying a 4.0 ghz is equal to 4.8-4.9 ghz really!!!! 

 

Look at the FSMark11 numbers.... 54.7 FPS

[jjcruz78 0]

 Ben,

 

      I have...... it is not the norm their is too much variance with this chips. I know it was posted by westman.

 

 

       P.S. bottom line you are going to believe what you want. I bet you are telling me to go and see that post witch I already did before you even said anything and you probably have even bother to check the posting of the article and youtube video (From people that have dealt with this chips directly like jj from asus or Pcpro people that are building the computers with this chips). Also may I ask how old are you ?

 

 

 

         

Any how you said you not trying to be arrogant. Let me tell you something you still have to grow up a lot.

 

 

    Sad .... :( 

 

     

[jjcruz78 0]

Arwen,

 

    Another piece of advice is haswell has the issue of ram frequency (ram) not been able to run as fast when overclock.

 

        don't take my word, if you can watch the youtube video I post - it talks about it in there.

 

Flyaway,

 

     don't take my word, please if you can watch the youtube video I posted and read the article (Pcpro)

 

     P.S. Can some one off chip run @ 4.7 ghz, yes but is not the norm so (best of luck guys!!)

 

 

         Happy Flying!!!!

[jjcruz78 0]

Arwen and Flyaway,

 

     Here is another review from Hardocp:

 

     (Conclusion from hardocp)

 

 

      The Bottom Line

 

 

 

 

 

My experience for the last couple of weeks with Haswell has been a good time. It has been a lot of fun working with the new architecture and I had some really good feelings about it, but going back and truly analyzing the benchmark data, it left me feeling a bit flat. I skipped upgrading my personal system when Ivy Bridge launched and elected to stick with my Sandy Bridge at 4.5GHz which has been running happily for quite a while now. That was just a little more than 2 years ago. Obviously at identical clocks Haswell is a bit faster than Sandy Bridge, but given the way my personal system usage has changed in the last couple of years, does having 15% better encode times or zipping up a file folder 1 second faster really mean anything? I hardly ever rip and encode video files anymore in today’s digital download world and when I do, I am generally not in a huge hurry. And if I was, I would have a LGA 2011 Sandy Bridge-E system sitting at my feet. As we have repeatedly shown, if you are using applications that are heavily threaded and likely in the content creation arena, the more cores the better. That said, a Core i7-3930K will still cost you around $570, and the motherboards are still hovering around the $200 mark on the very low end of the spectrum.

 

 

 

 

From the hardware enthusiast perspective it is going to be very interesting to see what retail purchased processors give us clock-wise in the wild. With Sandy Bridge and to a lesser extent Ivy Bridge, you could pretty much go buy that 2600K or 3770K processor and know you are going to bang out a solid 4.6 or 4.7GHz without a terribly expensive cooling solution on a decently priced motherboard. With everything I am hearing now about Haswell, 4.6GHz is sounding kind of dicey without less than $100 invested in a cooling system. If you purchase a Haswell and overclock it and find out 4.4GHz is pushing it for your particular processor, well then your gains from Haswell's superior IPC will be lessening quickly.

 

 

 

 

From gaming enthusiast perspective quite simply your hard earned hardware dollar is better spent on a new video card or display. (Or SSD for that matter.) While certainly CPU clock speed comes into play in the gaming arena, the games we play are largely GPU limited and most of you reading this already likely know if you have "enough" CPU for gaming. Or you likely know you are few CPU generations behind and already know you will greatly benefit from a CPU and motherboard upgrade.

 

 

 

 

When I started out on this review project I did not think that Haswell would be a hard sell for the current Sandy Bridge owner, but that is exactly what I am thinking right now. I still might upgrade my personal SB system, but if I do, it will likely be because the ASUS motherboards I used over the last couple of weeks were actually what was getting me excited about Haswell rather than the processor.

 

 

 

 

I generally have a resolute opinion about hardware after I have spent this much time using it, but I think with Haswell I am going to have to see how the enthusiast hardware community embraces the retail i7-4770K and i5-4670K processors and the results those bear before I truly figure this one out. I think Intel has spoiled a lot of us overclockers in the last few years as it truly has been easy. Are we about to go back to the days of spotting the "Blue Core TBird?"

 

     here is the link for the entire review:

 

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/06/01/intel_haswell_i74770k_ipc_overclocking_review/1#.UcU7xaMo670

 

 

    P.S. Best of luck!!!

 

     Happy Flying!!!

 

 

 

[martin-w 3,238]

QuoteYou have talked and talked and talked of Tim thinckness been the primary reason. When I have show up directly from Intel spec papers the main reason for the thermal issues. They selected a cheap Tim develop in 1996.

You're not listening to me.

 

The difference between a high end TIM and Intel's cheap 1996 TIM is only 3 degrees. [greater with liquid pro but still less than the temp drop associated with de-lidding] On the other hand, those that de-lid, see a huge drop in temp, way more than three degrees. Thus... logic dictates that there is an additional and more important reason for the big temp drop. And that reason is the considerable thickness of the Intel Tim.

 

Thickness is the primary reason. [See article linked to at bottom of post]

Quality of TIM is a secondary but important factor.

 

 

 

Look at your own link, your own TIM review.

Quote

Let see if you delidding and apply any other kind of Tim/paste (correctly) it still don't bring the temps. That shows thickness is not the main reason for the thermal issues. Only with high end Tim the temps goes down (ex. Coollaboratory - Tim/Paste).

No! That's not true at all! Other TIM's DO bring the temp down! Look at the temps on the forums, the de-lidding clubs... a de-lidded Ivy Bridge with Arctic Silver also brings the temp down, not as much as liquid pro, but it still brings the temp down, usually by around 12 degrees. And 12 degrees is FOUR TIMES greater than the difference between Intel's TIM and Arctic Silver.. The key is to apply the TIM in a THIN layer. Liquid Pro is so effective because it has good thermal conductivity, but primarily because it's applied in a VERY, VERY thin layer. look at the application of Liquid Pro, do you see how it's just a VERY thin layer?

 

If thickness wasn't vital, then those de-lidding would just slather it on in a thick layer, because it didn't matter. That is NOT the case. The main technique with de-lidding is to apply THINLY!

 

Here is a quote from the Avsim de-lidding guide...

Quotea TIM which is of poor quality to begin with, and is slathered on in a very thick layer will produce the ridiculously high temperatures that Ivy Bridge reaches when overclocked unless one performs this modification.

As you can see, the thickness of the TIM is a factor.

QuoteWho are you to correct me,

I think that statement above explains why you are being a bit rude in this thread.

 

I am a fellow enthusiast who is trying to have a friendly discussion with you. Unfortunately, you have accused me of being "immature" simply because I disagree with you.

 

 

 

I ask you sincerely...please debate nicely.

 

 

And finally...

 

Proof that the benefit from Delidding is entirely due to reducing the CPU-to-IHS gap

 

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34053183&postcount=570

 

Well worth a read!

 

 

Conclusion: The Intel stock CPU TIM is not the reason Ivy Bridge's run hot, and replacing the Intel stock CPU TIM is not the reason a delidded Ivy Bridge runs so much cooler - the benefits of delidding are entirely due to the resultant reduction in gap height between the CPU silicon die and the underside of the IHS.