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Tom Allensworth

Asiana B-777 Reported Down At KSFO

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What was dramatic about his statement? Sounded like the honest truth to me. They crashed a fully functioning aircraft into the ground. NTSB won't take 18 months. It's obvious what happened.


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Brent Baker

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Does the NTSB know you? Apparently, they could save themselves 18 months of enquiry.

 

Don't forget that some of elements you or others are mentioning (suspected laser beam, late evacuation) were not known until yesterday. So what shall we learn tomorrow?

 

I know most of us have enough clues by now to suspect that pilot error was the main reason for the crash.

 

Still, I think we should avoid making dramatic statements like yours. This is an aviation forum, not a tabloid.

 

My two cents, of course.

 

Rgds,

 

Bruno

I am aware my statement was kind of "strong" and purposefully so. I think it is already enough what we know today (and no matter what we are about to learn tomorrow), the pilots at least played major role in that accident. I understand many of us want to be careful in the statements we make, which is OK. I for one call what I see.

They were not stabilized at 1,000ft nor at 500ft. Go around. End of story.

 

One thing was not mentioned here and it adds to their mistakes: as they tried to save the situation some 100ft AGL after they realized what is happening, they made yet another mistake. It really isn't the appropriate action on T7 to add throttle AND pull the yoke. Had they just add throttle, the end result MIGHT have been different.


Jan Betlach
 

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They had ALL the reasons to go around.

 

Not only they showed a lack of basic flying skills, insufficient knowledge of technology they were operating, culture based behavior that has no place in cockpit, they also showed absolute lack of judgment and common sense.

 

They can try to blame ATC, auto throttle system, laser beam - whatever they want. I blame them and their airline for risking 300 or more lives.

 

 

What was dramatic about his statement? Sounded like the honest truth to me. They crashed a fully functioning aircraft into the ground. NTSB won't take 18 months. It's obvious what happened.

 

 

Flying skills and airmen's judgement seem to have been lacking but I'm not aware of confirmed details of the events on the flightdeck during approach:

 

- there is a riddle regarding the A/P flight mode and the automatic throttle wake-up

- influence of culture has to be considered but I have no clues yet whether it actually was a factor between those three persons in question

- the ATC-instructed slam-dunk approaches have been causing incidents for a number of airlines flying into KSFO (this is an ongoing issue!)

 

Pilots remain responsible but let's keep an open mind for contributing factors ...


What happened to AVSIM

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- there is a riddle regarding the A/P flight mode and the automatic throttle wake-up

- influence of culture has to be considered but I have no clues yet whether it actually was a factor between those three persons in question

- the ATC-instructed slam-dunk approaches have been causing incidents for a number of airlines flying into KSFO (this is an ongoing issue!)

 

- throttle wake up was not necessary at 500ft at which altitude they were not stable

- three pilots in the cockpit and none of them capable of any action?

- they could have to refuse the slam-dunk approach

 

I do get your point, nevertheless let us express the facts. There might have been other contributing factors, however they do not lessen or negate all those pilots' errors and mistakes.


Jan Betlach
 

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One thing was not mentioned here and it adds to their mistakes: as they tried to save the situation some 100ft AGL after they realized what is happening, they made yet another mistake. It really isn't the appropriate action on T7 to add throttle AND pull the yoke. Had they just add throttle, the end result MIGHT have been different.

Oh, I didn't know you were qualified in the T7 as well.

 

Funny, I thought most pilots IN NORMAL FLIGHT CONDITIONS learned that adding throttle is not good as long as the plane is not pointing in the right direction but, since the plane was apparently on the verge of stall, adding throttle was probably one of the things to do.

 

Flying skills and airmen's judgement seem to have been lacking but I'm not aware of confirmed details of the events on the flightdeck during approach:

 

- there is a riddle regarding the A/P flight mode and the automatic throttle wake-up

- influence of culture has to be considered but I have no clues yet whether it actually was a factor between those three persons in question

- the ATC-instructed slam-dunk approaches have been causing incidents for a number of airlines flying into KSFO (this is an ongoing issue!)

 

Pilots remain responsible but let's keep an open mind for contributing factors ...

My point exactly. Thanks for re-emphasizing this.

 

Rgds,

Bruno

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Oh, I didn't know you were qualified in the T7 as well.

 

Funny, I thought most pilots IN NORMAL FLIGHT CONDITIONS learned that adding throttle is not good as long as the plane is not pointing in the right direction but, since the plane was apparently on the verge of stall, adding throttle was probably one of the things to do.

 

 

My point exactly. Thanks for re-emphasizing this.

 

Rgds,

Bruno

Adding throttle without pulling the yoke at that altitude was the only DESPERATE action available. Pulling the yoke on the verge of stall just added to the stalling conditions they were in.

 

And of course I am qualified for T7 as well -:) We all are, it seems.


Jan Betlach
 

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- throttle wake up was not necessary at 500ft at which altitude they were not stable

- three pilots in the cockpit and none of them capable of any action?

- they could have to refuse the slam-dunk approach

 

I do get your point, nevertheless let us express the facts. There might have been other contributing factors, however they do not lessen or negate all those pilots' errors and mistakes.

 

My point is emotions might get stirred up. The pilots were responsible ... and they failed. Three of them at the same time. I fully agree with that.

 

But let's keep in mind there's a broader picture. And there might be more to the story and more to be learned from it.

 

Oh, I didn't know you were qualified in the T7 as well.

 

Funny, I thought most pilots IN NORMAL FLIGHT CONDITIONS learned that adding throttle is not good as long as the plane is not pointing in the right direction but, since the plane was apparently on the verge of stall, adding throttle was probably one of the things to do.

 

(...)

 

After advancing the 777 throttles from idle, it takes about 8-10 sec for them to spool up and to arrest the descent. And you need that thrust badly so close to the ground and to the stall ...


What happened to AVSIM

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Oh, I didn't know you were qualified in the T7 as well.

 

Funny, I thought most pilots IN NORMAL FLIGHT CONDITIONS learned that adding throttle is not good as long as the plane is not pointing in the right direction but, since the plane was apparently on the verge of stall, adding throttle was probably one of the things to do.

 

 

My point exactly. Thanks for re-emphasizing this.

 

Rgds,

Bruno

No bruno, that aircraft was not in a normal flight condition....it was on the verge of stall. By pulling back on the stick, the aircraft is forced to DESCEND. The only thing that would have saved them at that point was more power and a PUSH FORWARD on the stick.

 

That is why it is always better to teach students to understand that pitch controls speed and power controls altitude. In situations like that, having been taught that way gives the student the correct instinctive reaction. Students merely taught to fly by attitude and power combimations invariably will fall back to making the wrong reactions and pulling back and stalling the plane. We have seen this so many times now.

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My point is emotions might get stirred up. The pilots were responsible ... and they failed. Three of them at the same time. I fully agree with that.

 

But let's keep in mind there's a broader picture. And there might be more to the story and more to be learned from it.

 

Agreed. -:)

No bruno, that aircraft was not in a normal flight condition....it was on the verge of stall. By pulling back on the stick, the aircraft is forced to DESCEND. The only thing that would have saved them at that point was more power and a PUSH FORWARD on the stick.

 

Exactly this was my point. The sad truth is that they did not have enough time to spool up the engines at that altitude. Nevertheless pulling the yoke was another serious mistake contributing to all the previous mistakes they made.


Jan Betlach
 

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And of course I am qualified for T7 as well -:) We all are, it seems.

 

I am not. Am I the only one here ? :smile:

 

No bruno, that aircraft was not in a normal flight condition....it was on the verge of stall. By pulling back on the stick, the aircraft is forced to DESCEND. The only thing that would have saved them at that point was more power and a PUSH FORWARD on the stick.

 

Hi Kevin,

 

If you read my sentence fully, I mentioned that I was aware this was not a normal flight condition and that they were on the verge of stalling (or maybe already stalling, this we don't know yet...). But as to pushing on the stick so close to the ground...

 

Rgds,

Bruno

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I am not. Am I the only one here ? :smile:

 

Hi Kevin,

 

If you read my sentence fully, I mentioned that I was aware this was not a normal flight condition and that they were on the verge of stalling (or maybe already stalling, this we don't know yet...). But as to pushing on the stick so close to the ground...

 

Rgds,

Bruno

And that is the mindset that being trained under pitch for altitude causes. A fear of moving the stick forward. Pushing on the stick in that flight regime will cause an instant decrease in the descent rate, just as pulling back will cause an instant increase. The angle of attack is the angle of attack and the wing doesn't know it is close to the ground. (unless youre within ground effect ;•). It's one if the exercises I used to put my students through, flying the plane at the verge of stall and observing the effects of pushing and pulling on the stick. The changes in the vsi is instantaneous.

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And that is the mindset that being trained under pitch for altitude causes. A fear of moving the stick forward. Pushing on the stick in that flight regime will cause an instant decrease in the descent rate, just as pulling back will cause an instant increase. The angle of attack is the angle of attack and the wing doesn't know it is close to the ground. (unless youre within ground effect ;•). It's one if the exercises I used to put my students through, flying the plane at the verge of stall and observing the effects of pushing and pulling on the stick. The changes in the vsi is instantaneous.

Maybe we are not talking about the same time segment. My point (or I should rather say my guess) is that with a plane about to hit the ground on the verge of stall, whether you push or pull the stick doesn not make much difference any more, you are going to hit the ground. Period. Does that make sense to you or am I wrong on this?

 

Now you are (in exactly the same way I am!!!): :lol:

 

http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/BOEING/B777.html

No Oliver, I just pilot ultralights/microlights and - sometimes - GA ac. That, plus the fact that I happen to know personnally a few 777 pilots (and have a lot of respect for them) ensures that I will never claim to be qualified on a T7.

 

Rgds,

Bruno

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Maybe we are not talking about the same time segment. My point (or I should rather say my guess) is that with a plane about to hit the ground on the verge of stall, whether you push or pull the stick doesn not make much difference any more, you are going to hit the ground. Period. Does that make sense to you?

Bruno

No bruno, I'm talking about the segment where they just realized they are too low and slow and made the callout for speed, pushed the power forward and pulled back on the stick. Where everything they did mattered.

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Pushing the power and pushing on the yoke would gain them some speed and decrease the descent by added lift and maybe, just maybe they would reach the runway. I know, action of the last resort - that is where they allowed them to be in.

 

I will not repeat how many mistakes the pilots have made. I am sure the discussion here would be different if the outcome would be worse than it has been (which was very much possible if not for the T7 design, FA's actions and plain luck).

Well, I am not sure the parents of the teenage girls will agree here with me.

 

Besides other results the investigation will bring like the possible changes in KSFO approaches, it should clearly state, that this kind of amateurism has no business in the cockpit.

And that certainly isn't the sole fault of the pilots.


Jan Betlach
 

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