After playing around with MCE for a few weeks (and getting some great help on the forum), I'm really happy with the voice recognition and enhancements that my virtual co-pilot provides. Now after taking the next step and trying to use MCE to talk to ATC, I'm having some major communication errors. It's almost like the co-pilot and ATC use a completely different vocabulary... I'd estimate I get about 95% recognition from the copilot; but maybe 45% from ATC.

 

I mainly use Radar Contact for ATC and have been making short GA IFR flights to try things out. The ATC seems very hit and miss... even after training several different voice templates (quiet room, prop noise in the background, etc.). Through trial and error I'm starting to see that many of my problems originate with the callsign. If MCE "likes" a particular callsign (for instance, Speedbird 67), it has better recognition; but there are many callsigns it has a hard time understanding (for instance, Cessna). If the program even gets close to recognizing the callsign, it usually gets the rest of what I say pretty well; but if not, anything else I say comes out a jumbled mess. This raises a couple of questions: (1) Why is the callsign so important in ATC commands? It's not like there's really any other aircraft talking to MCE on my headset. (2) What is the correct way to train MCE to recognize more callsigns? I ask this because it seems there are a lot of callsigns included in Radar Contact that MCE doesn't have a clue about... for example, if I make my RC callsign "Skylane 123" and then ask MCE what my callsign is, the co-pilot responds "123". If my RC callsign is N123 (as in November 123), the co-pilot says it's n123 (as in "enn 1 2 3"). I've also noticed RC uses various abbreviations for some callsigns (bar=Baron, lea=Lear, pip=Piper, etc.). I have no idea how to train my speech for these particular cases (if it's even possible).

 

The ironic thing is that I was actually a controller for 15 years, so it's getting a little frustrating that ATC can't comprehend what is pretty much a second language for me. Any help and guidance is appreciated. Thanks.

 

MD

Well, after I got done venting in the previous post, I decided to try something new and think I made a breakthrough. Instead of using a "full" callsign (i.e. Cessna 8025K), I used an abbreviated callsign (Cessna 25K) and got great results (probably close to 90% recognition). Not sure if there is a limit to the number of parts/words allowed in a callsign; but limiting it to 4 (type + 3 characters or airline + 3 numbers) seems to be working much better. Time will tell.

 Why is the callsign so important in ATC commands? It's not like there's really any other aircraft talking to MCE on my headset.

 

I agree. Same could be said about the control centre, once you're dialled into it.

 

There is an option in the ATC section of the GUI to tell mce whether or not to check for an accurate callsign. That might be helpful. I run with it unchecked and rarely have any problems with the call sign. Then again I don't use RC.

Why is the callsign so important in ATC commands?

 

There is a reason for that.

 

Over the countless years we've been building this thing, we've tried all sorts of things to make the grammars as flexible as possible within the limits of the speech engine capabilities.

 

Because a call sign can be

 

Speedbird one zero zero seven

Speedbird ten oh seven heavy

Speedbird one double oh seven

Cessna novenber Golf Mike three five Delta

Cessna three five delta (short form)

...and many other variations...

 

we decided to have two separate speech grammars. One optimised for airliners and expects...

 

Airline_name

 

From 1 to 4 digits or numbers (one four six five, forteen sixty five, one four sixty five)

 

Optional (Heavy) word

 

The other is optimised for general aviation traffic, with call signs of the type

 

aircraft_type + up to 6 combined digits and NATO alphabet (for the long form)

 

OR just the aircraft_tail_number in phonetic alphabet

 

OR aircraft_type + the last 3 letters of the tail_number.

 

The downside with this approach, should a call-sign be wrongly identified, MCE could end-up loading the wrong grammar. The result, when you speak the call-sign, the speech engine will not find a match to your speech and will either not return recognition or worse yet, try to match what you uttered to some totally unrelated speech rule.

 

I suggest you use one of the well known airline names, United, Delta, KLM, Speedbird, Lufthansa, Alitalia, Iberia or whatever. With these MCE will always get it right.

 

When you have it all working as expected, you can start using fancy general aviation aircraft types. And if you come across one particular call sign that doesn't work well, please report it.

 

I believe, currently 16 or so general aviation aircraft types are expected as such. Anything outside the list will automatically be treated as Airliner, with the potential adverse consequences above. An example, recently had to add the "phenom" to the list.

 

Another thing... 

 

We never tested the RC4 VFR capabilities. And I have no idea how to proceed at uncontrolled airfields.

 

For VFR, you're probably better off with the built-in ATC.

 

You can't go wrong with a typical major airline as call sign on a full IFR flight with RC4

 

With MCE voice capability, you won't need to bother switching between various RC4 screen options. It's all done automatically.

 

Want to change runway, just say "ground United 143 requesting runway 25 left for departure" and MCE will do the rest (assuming you have spoken a valid runway at that airport)

 

Want to request level chang? "control United 143 request further climb flight level 200"

"Control United 143 requesting lower flight level 130" and MCE will do the rest

 

Want direct course to an existing waypoint along the filed flight plan? So be it

 

"Control United 143, requesting direct course to kendo" (kendo is a fictional waypoint)

 

Do NOT spell kendo as "Kilo Echo November Delta Oscar" rather speak it as it's written.

VORs on the other hand should be spoken using NATO alphabet

Hi Gerald,

 

Thanks for the reply and insight. I'll keep playing around with it until I find the callsigns that work best for me. Is there a list of what general aviation types are included in MCE? I know that Cessna and Piper are... but Radar Contact has several others that MCE doesn't seem to recognize. Personally, being from the U.S., I'd like to see "November" implemented as a callsign -- that way I can use it with any aircraft. Interestingly, Radar Contact allows you to implement November (or any other phonetic letter) as the "type" but limits the registration to 5 characters. However, MCE seems to interpret that as just the letter and not as November. Example: RC callsign entered as November 12345... Ask co-pilot what callsign is... Co-pilot responds "n" (as in the letter) "one two three four five".

 

On a different subject, is it helpful to do the speech training modules multiple times or does that just confuse the speech engine? Also, will doing custom speech training on unrecognized callsigns do any good if MCE doesn't already recognize that particular word/phrase as a callsign?

 

MD

Hi Gerald,

 

Thanks for the reply and insight. I'll keep playing around with it until I find the callsigns that work best for me. Is there a list of what general aviation types are included in MCE? I know that Cessna and Piper are... but Radar Contact has several others that MCE doesn't seem to recognize. Personally, being from the U.S., I'd like to see "November" implemented as a callsign -- that way I can use it with any aircraft. Interestingly, Radar Contact allows you to implement November (or any other phonetic letter) as the "type" but limits the registration to 5 characters. However, MCE seems to interpret that as just the letter and not as November. Example: RC callsign entered as November 12345... Ask co-pilot what callsign is... Co-pilot responds "n" (as in the letter) "one two three four five".

 

On a different subject, is it helpful to do the speech training modules multiple times or does that just confuse the speech engine? Also, will doing custom speech training on unrecognized callsigns do any good if MCE doesn't already recognize that particular word/phrase as a callsign?

 

MD

 

For general aviation traffic, here are the 3 acceptable call sign variations.

 

Let's assume you're flying a Bonanza with tail number N45DRS

 

You could say...

 

Bonanza November Four Five Delta Romeo Sierra (full callsign)

Bonanza November Forty Five Delta Romeo Sierra

Bonanza Delta Romeo Sierra   (aircraft_type + 3 last letters)

November Four Five Delta Romeo Sierra

November Forty Five Delta Romeo Sierra (tail number only)

 

Currently, MCE treats any of these as general aviation traffic, and will load "vGaRC4.cfg"

 

bee (Beechcraft)

bon (Bonanza)

ces (Cessna)

Chal (Challenger)

Che (Cherokee)

Chy (Cheyenne)

cit (Citation)

fal (Falcon)

gru (Grumman)

gul (Gulfstream)

Kingair

lea (Learjet)

pip (Piper)

skl (Skylane)

moo (Mooney)

g (Golf)

 

Anything else will be seen as an airliner, with MCE loading "vRC4.cfg" instead.

 

 

Co-pilot responds "n" (as in the letter) "one two three four five".

 

The above could be a glitch in a particular voice pack. Voice actor possibly having recorded "N" as alphabet letter instead of the phonetic NATO equivalent  Suggest you re-download and install the relevant voice pack.

 

At the very least, change first officer to confirm it's not a glitch in the code.

Thanks for the GA list... that will be helpful in selecting callsigns.

 

Regarding "n" and "november", I don't think it's a recording glitch. The reason being if I put n (November) in the type field and "12345" as the registration in Radar Contact, the first officer will state the callsign as "n 12345". But if I put *blank in the type field and "N12345" as the registration in Radar Contact, the co-pilot states the callsign as "November 12345". One would think the latter method would solve my issues; but in many hours of trying, I have never had MCE recognize "November" as part of any callsign. It will return seemingly everything else under the sun (if it recognizes it at all), but it's never November. I notice that n (November) is not included in the GA list... but curiously, g (Golf) is. I wonder if that is the root of the problem.

 

The more I think about the requirement to use different grammers for airlines and general aviation, the more I scratch my head. Admittedly, I know nothing about how the code requires different phrases to achieve recognition; but the current callsign requirements still don't make sense to me. As far as I can see, the callsign is just filler and fluff. Unlike the real world, MCE doesn't need to know which aircraft is calling... if the ptt switch is pressed, it knows it's me calling ATC. Why does it make any difference if the callsign is "Speedbird 555", "November 1 3 6 7 Alpha", or "Popsicle Ectoplasm Flipping My Liver". I know the co-pilot can ignore certain phrases just fine ("please", "good morning", etc.), why can't ATC just ignore the callsign and work on recognizing the important stuff?

 

As far as I can tell, RC normally requires only 3 actions: A Check In call, An acknowledgement, and Requests. Wouldn't associating certain keywords or phrases with each of these actions greatly simplify ATC communications without requiring a specific callsign? For example: "with you", "checking in", "passing", etc. would always be in a check in call. "Roger", "Wilco", "copy", etc. would always be associated with an acknowledgement. The most complex processes would be requests - if MCE hears "request", "would like" (or equivalent), it would know to listen for what that request is and make the appropriate selection (altitude change, alternate runway, direct routing, etc.). All of this can be done without the need for any callsign recognition.

 

I realize that maybe I'm asking for a fix to something that isn't broken for many people. MCE is, after all, primarily aimed at "big iron" flying. But why not be able to use it effectively for ATC procedures when flying any aircraft? They do all use the exact same phraseology.

 

 

Regarding "n" and "november", I don't think it's a recording glitch. The reason being if I put n (November) in the type field and "12345" as the registration in Radar Contact, the first officer will state the callsign as "n 12345". But if I put *blank in the type field and "N12345" as the registration in Radar Contact, the co-pilot states the callsign as "November 12345". One would think the latter method would solve my issues; but in many hours of trying, I have never had MCE recognize "November" as part of any callsign

 

That is correct behaviour. Suggest you put "g" in the type of aircraft, and "N12345" as registrtion. You will then be able to use the full call-sign "November one two three four five" as the call sign without mentioning aircraft type.

 

The main reason for not doing away with call-sign is that this was initially designed to be a learning tool for student pilots before they venture into Vatsim or the real world ATC. Gives them confidence in stringing a few ATC sentences together, especially those whose native language isn't English. 

 

There is even an option to force people to speak the absolute correct call-sign. The aim is to teach potential students to be careful with their transmissions. In the real world, you could be "Delta 4565", and there could be another "Delta1123" in the same ATC sector. You don't just muffle anything and hope ATC will make sense of it.

 

At least, the option in <ATC> panel, when switched OFF, allows you some freedom with call-sign

 

 

On a different subject, is it helpful to do the speech training modules multiple times or does that just confuse the speech engine? Also, will doing custom speech training on unrecognized callsigns do any good if MCE doesn't already recognize that particular word/phrase as a callsign?

 

Sorry, forgot to answer that.

 

In general, it's not a good idea to overtrain the speech engine. A single session for every topic available via the MCE speech training tool should be enough. And yes, custom training will help as will the "ATC phraseology" topic.

 

A speech profile is a collection of

 

A voice

A specific headset

Specific ambient background noise conditions

 

Change any of the above, and you are advised to create a brand new speech profile, make it active and train it from scratch.

 

Consistency is more important than anything. Get too angry for example, and the speech engine is unlikely to cooperate.

 

I'd like to share a video that came out of David's lab today.

 

It shows what you can do with Radar Contact via voice. Food for thought for those who think RC4 is an old program

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuJA3suPe5A&feature=share&list=UUYx0PyJqI3uJm5xyUpp9MwQ

Suggest you put "g" in the type of aircraft, and "N12345" as registrtion. You will then be able to use the full call-sign "November one two three four five" as the call sign without mentioning aircraft type.

Hmm... didn't think of that... still not sure if it will load the correct grammer since "golf" would not be spoken; but I'll give it a shot.

 

On the subject of real world callsigns, just wanted to mention that N45DRS is not a valid U.S. callsign. It can be 3 to 5 numbers/letters after the "November" -- but only the last two spots can be letters. Valid examples: N45RS, N45S, N451DR, N5DS, etc.

 

You also mentioned earlier the use of VFR procedures in Radar Contact. To my knowledge, RC only simulates IFR flights... the only VFR procedures I've noticed are when departing from an uncontrolled airport, you can make taxi and takeoff calls.

 

Thanks for putting up with me :-)

Putting g (Golf) as the type is not a good workaround because now the controller calls me "Golf November XXX". Is it not possible to include N (and all the rest of the ICAO phoenetic letters in the general aviation category?

Putting g (Golf) as the type is not a good workaround because now the controller calls me "Golf November XXX". Is it not possible to include N (and all the rest of the ICAO phoenetic letters in the general aviation category?

 

Affirmative, the RC4 controller would typically call you with aircraft_type + tail_number.

 

But when you transmit, you don't have to speak the "Golf" bit which in this case happens to be the aicraft type.

 

Equally, when asking FO about call-sign, he's likely to say "g" November XXX"

 

 

Should be able to transmit using just the tail number "November XXX", however, you need to speak the entire tail_number.

 

To use the short form (3 letters from the tail number) you'd need to speak the aircraft type too. Which in this case is awkward beause it's just one leeter "g"

 

To recap, your callsign could be any of these

November one two three four five

November twelve three forty five

November one twenty three forty five

 

If you only want to transmit the last 3 digits (three four five), include aircraft type. It doesn't need to be accurate

 

Cessna three four five

beechcraft three four five

etc...

 

The full call-sign "golf November XXXXX" can be used too.

 

Maybe in next update will allow for a specific GA aircraft type (to be determined) to be accepted as general aviation traffic.

 

What GA aircraft are you flying?

FS++, on 29 Aug 2013 - 2:21 PM, said:

Maybe in next update will allow for a specific GA aircraft type (to be determined) to be accepted as general aviation traffic.

 

What GA aircraft are you flying?

Off the top of my head: Bellanca, Citabria, Islander, Grumman, Experimental, Boeing, Lockheed, Cirrus, Marchetti, Douglas, Hawker, Pilatus, Commander, Pitts, and Christen Eagle come to mind.

 

Of course, not all of these types are supported in Radar Contact, which is why a catch-all type such as "November" and the other phoenetic letters would be the most useful (Hint, Hint) :-D

Off the top of my head: Bellanca, Citabria, Islander, Grumman, Experimental, Boeing, Lockheed, Cirrus, Marchetti, Douglas, Hawker, Pilatus, Commander, Pitts, and Christen Eagle come to mind.

 

Of course, not all of these types are supported in Radar Contact, which is why a catch-all type such as "November" and the other phoenetic letters would be the most useful (Hint, Hint) :-D

 

OK, will add these to the GaRC4 grammar, and the code will also see these as GA traffic. You will have to select "golf" from the list in RC4 UI, type the full tail number in the box "Enter your aircraft ID". We can't change the fact RC4 will always reply with "Golf Whatever_tail_Number" you typed. Should be done within 5 days.

You will have to select "golf" from the list in RC4 UI, type the full tail number in the box "Enter your aircraft ID".

Arghh... I think we are having a communication breakdown. Why Golf? I need NOVEMBER !!! Every U.S. registered aircraft begins with November. See the screenshot:

 

 

 

November is selected in the type field. Only 12345 is in the ID field (no N).

If MCE specifies November as General Aviation, I can use:

November One Two Three Four FIve

November Three Four Five

One Two Three Four Five

Three Four Five

etc.

 

No need to use Golf....