O.C. Before FSX or After?

[simmerhead 885]

How do you OC and test the OC before even installing Windows?

 

He was talking about the application, Jim - not the Operating System. Why on earth would you think he meant the OS ????

 

In setting up an Enterprise Oracle database server, with a 65,000 user ERP business package, one does the load testing on a "dev" machine before it ever gets to production, and the reason is - we do not want any corruption to occur as a result of a BSoD, CtD, crash, shutdown, whatever. I appreciate that it goes against the grain for a lot of people, as it has been drummed into FS9'ers and FSX'ers that " install everything, and then "get it stable" ".. Huh? I want to know that the machine is already stable at 5gig or whatever, when I install FSX, not onto a 3.2 gig pussy-cat that is never going to crash. Spending a few days, loading REX, Orbx, (now half of the known world) NGX, New York, New Jersey, New Mexico, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Vancouver, KMIA, KORD, St. Maartens, HongKong, Denver, you name it - and then risk the whole thing ? - all that work - by messing - sorry experimenting - sorry, I meant - "adjusting".... different Vcores 1.34... 1.35...1.36...1.38...??? until we find the correct "BLCK" - "CPU-PLL", etc., which can only be re-thought-about after the first bluescreen. ... and then repeated 'till the next BSod, or a complete shutdown.. 

 

No thank you. My machine is being overclocked, and tested for reliability before my apps get loaded on, thank you.

 

The same logic can be applied to having an unstable OC (There is no way of telling if an OC i 100% stable!) then installing all your software and finding out in hindsight that files got corrupted because your computer was running on steroids.

 

I guess we can just conclude that there are two ways to do it, and to each his own.

 

Anyway, to whomever is going to OC the most important bit is understanding how to configure your computer and BIOS. Don't rush into it, and don't go for the extremes unless you OC for the sake of it. I know some people who do it as a hobby and never run any other software on their computer than benchmark programs. I guess they fall in the same category as people who only has FSX to tweak the cfg file

[KingGhidorah 209]

I don't think overclocking is quite as risky or dangerous to your file system as is being portrayed here...Sure, I guess things can always go belly up, and of course one shouldn't be cavalier about it, but it's well within the realm of a complete amateur to follow a sensible guide and not have to bite their fingernails off worrying that they are going to fry something or corrupt their file or operating system. 

[simmerhead 885]

I don't think overclocking is quite as risky or dangerous to your file system as is being portrayed here...Sure, I guess things can always go belly up, and of course one shouldn't be cavalier about it, but it's well within the realm of a complete amateur to follow a sensible guide and not have to bite their fingernails off worrying that they are going to fry something or corrupt their file or operating system. 

 

Yes, it ain't rocket science, and as long as they follow a sensible guide as you say. What is a sensible guide and who's advice do you trust - that is the question.  

 

I've seen the pitfalls. I had a friend who got his entire library of photos and videos corrupted among other things.  Just very tiny errors in lots of files that showed up as "banding" in the photos. Most of his backups were useless since corruption happend either during import of the files, or when they were moved around on his computer. His OC was at the extreme end though, but beware!

[Guest]

Don't rush into it, and don't go for the extremes unless you OC for the sake of it.

 

I agree with that. Obviously, I would say but it seems it isn't so obvious. I myself OC'ed my PC until I found a setting that I could run everything (stresstests but also programs) without ANY problems... and after that I lowered the OC a few notches, just to be on the safe side and have some overhead (for instance in case of extremely hot days). In my case this meant going back from 4.7GHz to 4.5 GHz which is a small step but still. I've been using my PC every day for almost two and a half year (apart from very short holidays) and never ever did something 'weird' happen that I could trace back to the OC, not even on EXTREMELY hot days. It has been rock solid and it still is.

 

Concerning the life span OC has on your system: it is true that things may break down sooner but the importance of this of course also does depend on how often you plan to upgrade your PC or get a new one. I have had the luxury of getting a new PC once every 2 to 3 years. If you OC your PC carefully you will indeed shorten its life span but then you have to start thinking about 7 or 9 years... My previous PC has been OC'ed using the DEFAULT Intel cooler... and it's now used by my son and it has worked flawlessly for over 5 years!

 

It's just a matter of not wanting it ALL and being a bit careful. OC wisely and you will never have problems.

[wanabflyer 53]

Thanks all for the advice. So I think I will go with an o.c. On my fresh W7 before any other software install. One thing I noticed in "in only one" of the many articles I have studied all day yesterday and it is something I would have thought that all of these guides should note (IMHO). Before starting any o.c., this one article advises to go into your disc drive properties/hardware/policies and uncheck the option: "Enable write caching on the device".

As it explains in the dialog, this option left checked can result in software file corruption.

 

It seems to me that this small step makes sense and is worth a mention in these guides.

 

Thanks again for your advice,

[JSkorna 137]

Glad to see that this is all a matter of opinion and not anything else.

[airernie 263]

Glad to see that this is all a matter of opinion and not anything else.

 

I think "a matter of experience" would be a more accurate and some of us have different experiences than others.

 

Ernie

[JSkorna 137]

Experiences and opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

 

If it's more than that: Can anyone point to 3 How To's, Guides, Articles, White Papers or Research that suggests that overclocking should usually be done before installing programs?

[brucets 94]

From Nick Needham's FSX hardware & software installation and set-up guide --------

 

THE FSX COMPUTER SYSTEM: THE BIBLE - BY: NickN

http://www.simforums.com/forums/the-fsx-computer-system-the-bible-by-nickn_topic46211.html

 

CLOCKING AND MEMORY TESTING -

 

 

We DO NOT CLOCK a new system when loading Windows, installing software and setting it up. Clocking is the LAST OPERATION after everything has been installed, confirmed, tested, and tuned. When you get to that point there IS A DEFINED memory test using Memtest that all users should run to confirm memory controller and CPU stability with the CPU and memory speed the user is running.

 

 

 

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CHAPTER 2, VERSE 5

 

 

-You have gone through the list above, verified your hardware and your BIOS settings and installed Windows in a NON-CLOCKED environment

 

 

You do want to make sure your memory and CPU are running the correct speed/timing, but you DO NOT want to overclock at this time or anytime during the initial setup, installation and optimization of Windows and the initial install and setup of Flight Sim. The BIOS default setup for the CPU at this point is fine. You may have needed to make changes so your memory is running the correct speed/timing/voltage as I outlined earlier, and, you may have made changes to the SATA system and boot order of the system. DO NOT OVERCLOCK a system during this initial setup process.

 

 

NEVER install Windows, flash BIOS files, install large amounts of software and drivers with a overclocked system.

 

 

It is one thing that if you are very proficient at overclocking and know what you are doing with respect to verifying stability,.. you can get away with using a system and installing addons/drivers/programs over time after the initial setup is complete. If you are not very well versed in overclocking and how to PROPERLY verify stability with an exceptionally high level of confidence I suggest its far better to be safe than sorry.

 

 

HOWEVER: Even a seasoned professional overclocker knows better than to overclock a system first and then install or set up a Windows system with all the software/drivers as that places a high RISK file system corruption into the equation. IF you do that and you do not think its a problem when a seasoned professional does...   Here's your sign!

 

 

[Guest]

Oh no, not NickN, please... :blink:

 

^_^

[Bjoern 1,157]

I have reinstalled Windows, FSX and everything else on an overclocked system. After fighting off the thus summoned dark knights of BS with nothing but a pencil and a chicken salad, I can safely say that...everything works as it should.

[Paul J 349]

1). We DO NOT CLOCK a new system when loading Windows, installing software and setting it up.

2). Clocking is the LAST OPERATION after everything has been installed, confirmed, tested, and tuned. When you get to that point there IS A DEFINED memory test using Memtest that all users should run to confirm memory controller and CPU stability with the CPU and memory speed the user is running.

 

Ummm...

1). No-one has suggesting that we "clock a new system when loading Windows, installing software and setting it up." No-one! 

2). Achieving a maximum clock speed while carrying the heaviest load, and running at an acceptable temperature should be worked up to once a modest burn-in period has passed, and done after the operating system is fully installed, along with the system drivers from disc, a network created and attached, and then the drives updated. That is the point at which we have an overclocked PC. It should be stable and able to run and pass a variety of suitable load testing applications non-stop for several days. 

 

No... Nick hasn't defined "everything", and his wording has the implication here that it includes all of your general software, your gaming software, your business software, and anything else which you may normally include under "everything". Following the build, we load Windows and the requisite driver system, and then do a Memtest. Once it's up and running stock satisfactorily - leave it running with CPU-Z showing, some form of temperature monitoring system, and have it play a movie for a couple of days or three. When we're satisfied with the stock automatic speed ramping up, etc., then we can introduce some minor overclock, with short testing sessions with Aida64. This can be continued as long as you want, slowly manually moving BIOS parameters from Auto to manual, increasing and/or decreasing voltages, etc., recording what you're doing, and eventually arriving at a still-under-control temperature while maintaining the desired overclock.  

 

Then - you will have a successfully-overclocked Windows PC ready for whatever use you may want.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

-You have gone through the list above, verified your hardware and your BIOS settings and installed Windows in a NON-CLOCKED environment

 

 

You do want to make sure your memory and CPU are running the correct speed/timing, but you DO NOT want to overclock at this time or anytime during the initial setup, installation and optimization of Windows and the initial install and setup of Flight Sim. The BIOS default setup for the CPU at this point is fine. You may have needed to make changes so your memory is running the correct speed/timing/voltage as I outlined earlier, and, you may have made changes to the SATA system and boot order of the system. DO NOT OVERCLOCK a system during this initial setup process.

 

Of course. We agree.

 

NEVER install Windows, flash BIOS files, install large amounts of software and drivers with a overclocked system.

 

All of these functions are done every day. Do we go back to default BIOS setting to load a new Nvidia graphics driver? Do we undo our overclock when we blow away and re-install our FSX? BIOS files are a different issue, but many do so quite successfully at the full overclock.

 

It is one thing that if you are very proficient at overclocking and know what you are doing with respect to verifying stability,.. you can get away with using a system and installing addons/drivers/programs over time after the initial setup is complete. If you are not very well versed in overclocking and how to PROPERLY verify stability with an exceptionally high level of confidence I suggest its far better to be safe than sorry.

 

Of course. We agree.

 

HOWEVER: Even a seasoned professional overclocker knows better than to overclock a system first and then install or set up a Windows system with all the software/drivers as that places a high RISK file system corruption into the equation. IF you do that and you do not think its a problem when a seasoned professional does...

 

Again - the wording implies that we blindly overclock without an operating system, doing this or that wrong, and doing it all in a non-"professional" manner, and creating all kinds of risks. This is nothing but fear-mongering.

 

If a system is built as outlined above, and is now fully stable at 4.6, for e.g., there is no absolutely no reason that the gaming software cannot be put in as the last "operation" - there being far less risk of a bluescreen, a crash, or whatever corruption-causing event happening. 

 

There - and I didn't have to shout, either!

 

All the Best,

 

peej

[airernie 263]

Experiences and opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

 

If it's more than that: Can anyone point to 3 How To's, Guides, Articles, White Papers or Research that suggests that overclocking should usually be done before installing programs?

 

Any How To, Guide, Articles, etc. is nothing more than someone else's experience or opinion.  It's just a matter of whom you trust..

[JSkorna 137]

Any How To, Guide, Articles, etc. is nothing more than someone else's experience or opinion.  It's just a matter of whom you trust..

Excellent, then don't trust anyone, just rely on your own gut feelings and experiences.

[wanabflyer 53]

Well I guess I'll just have to let you all know what happens. Just watching paint dry right now, Pass-Pass-BSOD, Pass-Pass-Pass-BSOD, Pass-Pass.....................

 

Regards,