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wanabflyer

O.C. Before FSX or After?

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I notice with surprise that the latest FSX install/setup guide is now saying over clock "BEFORE" FSX install?????

 

Is this right?

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Not a chance is that right!

 

How would you know whether it was the OC or FSX that caused a crash?

 

Install everything, get it configured and running smoothly, backup the whole thing and then attempt to fry your CPU.....never before!

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How can you get it configured and running smoothly without OC'ing first...? That would be a total waste of time because you would have to do all that tweaking and testing all over again with the new CPU speed. If you make sure the OC is alright, then FSX won't have any problems with it.

 

I don't believe in the 'install everything before you OC' fable. ^_^

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Just finished a month long rebuild of my rig and all software and did it all @ 4.861 ghz. No problems at all.

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Not a chance is that right!

 

How would you know whether it was the OC or FSX that caused a crash?

 

Install everything, get it configured and running smoothly, backup the whole thing and then attempt to fry your CPU.....never before!

That is categorically incorrect. You should only install FSX (or any software, for that matter) AFTER you have a clean stable OS. That means overclock stabe, drivers up to date and Windows SP and all updates applied. Once you have that and can pass Prime95, you go ahead and install FSX. If you start to have issues upon installing and configuring FSX, you know the culprit is FSX.

 

The last thing you want to do is tinker with overclock settings on a system already jammed to the hilt with "optimizations" and software.

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. If you start to have issues upon installing and configuring FSX, you know the culprit is FSX.

Not always. You may find getting rid of or reducing the OC gets rid of the issues hence why I recommend to do the OC AFTER FSX is running stable so you know it runs fine at stock speed.

 

I think it's silly to do it any other way but each to their own

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The last thing you want to do is tinker with overclock settings on a system already jammed to the hilt with "optimizations" and software.

 

+1

 

Ernie

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OC is something you do ONLY after you have setup and installed everything to perfection.

 

There is no way of knowing if an OC is stable. File corruption is the most common error you can encounter on a computer that is OC'ed above it's limits, and even if you run all kinds of memory and CPU tests, there are countless other issues that can happen from the general increase in bus speed and voltage causing errors on motherboard components. These errors can be almost impossible to identify and can result in all kinds of small instabilities in Windows and installed software.

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The question of optimizing FSX first before overclocking v. overclocking first and then optimizing is a false dichotomy, since optimizing is a trial and error process anyway.   You'll end up zeroing in on the same end result, no matter what order you do it in.  Furthermore, I guarantee you'll be playing with further optimization tweaks long after you've achieved a stable overclock.   

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Ghidorah, how you came to worry about that is beyond me since I didn't even mention FSX in my above post. :P

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Ghidorah, how you came to worry about that is beyond me since I didn't even mention FSX in my above post. :P

 

I realize that!  Our posts stepped on each other and I edited out the requote and "Simmerhead, please tell me you don't gauge your overclock with FSX".  That part was not relavent to what I was trying to say, so I deleted it, only to find out you had already responded :P My fault.

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OC is something you do ONLY after you have setup and installed everything to perfection.

 

There is no way of knowing if an OC is stable. File corruption is the most common error you can encounter on a computer that is OC'ed above it's limits, and even if you run all kinds of memory and CPU tests, there are countless other issues that can happen from the general increase in bus speed and voltage causing errors on motherboard components. These errors can be almost impossible to identify and can result in all kinds of small instabilities in Windows and installed software.

Manipulating bus speed, voltage, etc. is precisely what leads to the file corruption, which is why you need the overclock to be stable before installing software. Start tinkering with your overclock after you install FSX, and you will see the "issues" you're referring to.

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OC is something you do ONLY after you have setup and installed everything to perfection.

 

So everytime you need to install something you set the CPU back to default speeds, install and OC and test again...? I have OC'd my PC the day I got it and installed everything OC'd and all (in the meantime I think I have reinstalled the entire system around 6 times up to now for various reasons) and I never ever ran into problems. FSX is fine, my music software is fine, all is fine.

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So everytime you need to install something you set the CPU back to default speeds, install and OC and test again...? I have OC'd my PC the day I got it and installed everything OC'd and all (in the meantime I think I have reinstalled the entire system around 6 times up to now for various reasons) and I never ever ran into problems. FSX is fine, my music software is fine, all is fine.

 

Correct. You should install software, do backups and import photos and videos at stock speed.

 

The reason all is fine on your computer is that your OC is within the tolerable limits of your hardware. The problem is that sometimes you will discover something is wrong after the fact, and small file corruptions for instance can be very hard to figure out. A corrupted file can give you unidentifiable blue screens, freezes, glitches etc.

 

When you OC and push the limits of your hardware you increase risk of failure. It's as simple as that. A Forumla 1 car isn't as reliable as normal car. Also people tend to forget that hardware deteriorate over time, and when you OC, lifespan of your hardware can decrease.

 

To each his own of course, but if you have valuable files on your computer I suggest that it is better to be safe than sorry.

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Thanks for the replies everyone, only trouble is, we don't have consensus here. If you check the AVSIM Software & Hardware Guide for FSX Version 1.0.4.8, it gives the reason for OC'ing before is because it can corrupt already installed apps, hence this should be done on a virgin W7 install. Their words not mine.

 

I ask because I have had Mobo problems and did a small CPU/MOBO upgrade requiring a complete clean install of everything, so I thought that if I am going to suffer this ordeal, it might as well be the right way.

 

Any thought on this theory before I go ahead. Right now I am sitting with a nice clean install of W7 with absolutely nothing on it except all my required drivers, updates etc.

 

Thanks,

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If you have a new computer, I would do the overclock before installing what software you intend to install.  If you have a computer with a lot of stuff on it already, including FSX, and you suddenly decide you want to overclock, go ahead and do it anyway, because I don't think the risk  is all that great enough to justify a clean installation of W7.  However, if one is worried about that, then it makes sense to do the overclocking before any other software installations, because you are going to get dozens of blue screens while you are overclocking.  That would be when your system is most vulnerable.  The idea that you should install everything first, as simmerhead is suggesting, due to the fact that you might discover later that you have an unstable overclock, with the risk of file corruption to all the things that you installed before, is a logic that I'm still struggling to follow.  And like I said, the most likely you are to actually have an unstable overclock is during the overclocking process itself.  If you experience an overclock related blue screen next summer, due to the ambient heat, it's just as likely, or as unlikely, to screw things up, regardless of what order you did things in originally.

 

If you tweak and optimize FSX before an overclock, I doubt your work would be completely in vain.  However, once you overclock, I promise you'll want to move those sliders up just a little more to take advantage of the greater speed, and you'll find yourself right back in that fsx.cfg file tweaking away, trying to coax that last drop of performance out of it.   Does getting FSX optimized at 3.3 ghz aid in getting it re-optimized at 4.6 ghz?  Probably, maybe, maybe not, or somewhere in between, so from my way of seeing it, you might as well just save it for last.

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 If you check the AVSIM Software & Hardware Guide for FSX Version 1.0.4.8, it gives the reason for OC'ing before is because it can corrupt already installed apps, hence this should be done on a virgin W7 install.

 

On that basis is Windows not worthy enough of being corrupt-free?

Install Windows then OC as there is a risk of damaging existing files? If that is the case then NEVER OC as Windows can go bye-bye.

 

What good are any apps installed if Windows has corrupted files? Get a blue screen after a supposed stable OC which was setup before installing FSX - which is the culprit FSX or a corrupt file within Windows? How would you tell?

 

Following that logic would tell me NEVER to OC and that way I would never have any corrupt files.

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Wow. I still can't understand people's argument for OC'ing after the software install. The reasoning reads a bit like Dr. Seuss. It's incomprehensible, at best. At worst, it begins to argue against itself.

 

To the OP: Perhaps you should ask this question elsewhere. Like on Tom's Hardware or Overclocker's Forum where people are...better informed.

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On that basis is Windows not worthy enough of being corrupt-free?

Install Windows then OC as there is a risk of damaging existing files? If that is the case then NEVER OC as Windows can go bye-bye.

 

What good are any apps installed if Windows has corrupted files? Get a blue screen after a supposed stable OC which was setup before installing FSX - which is the culprit FSX or a corrupt file within Windows? How would you tell?

 

Following that logic would tell me NEVER to OC and that way I would never have any corrupt files.

Huh??

 

I'm not trying to be rude, but that scarcely qualifies as logic. It's a fairly simple concept. Manipulating overclocking variables after a software install can corrupt files. That doesn't mean you can't overclock. It means that you overclock the system BEFORE software is installed.

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So Trevor, What happens when you want to install a new program? Do you set everything back to default speed, install, and then OC again? How do you OC and test the OC before even installing Windows? I really would like you to provide outside links to support your position, if you can.

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How do you OC and test the OC before even installing Windows?

 

He was talking about the application, Jim - not the Operating System. Why on earth would you think he meant the OS ????

 

In setting up an Enterprise Oracle database server, with a 65,000 user ERP business package, one does the load testing on a "dev" machine before it ever gets to production, and the reason is - we do not want any corruption to occur as a result of a BSoD, CtD, crash, shutdown, whatever. I appreciate that it goes against the grain for a lot of people, as it has been drummed into FS9'ers and FSX'ers that " install everything, and then "get it stable" ".. Huh? I want to know that the machine is already stable at 5gig or whatever, when I install FSX, not onto a 3.2 gig pussy-cat that is never going to crash. Spending a few days, loading REX, Orbx, (now half of the known world) NGX, New York, New Jersey, New Mexico, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Vancouver, KMIA, KORD, St. Maartens, HongKong, Denver, you name it - and then risk the whole thing ? - all that work - by messing - sorry experimenting - sorry, I meant - "adjusting".... different Vcores 1.34... 1.35...1.36...1.38...??? until we find the correct "BLCK" - "CPU-PLL", etc., which can only be re-thought-about after the first bluescreen. ... and then repeated 'till the next BSod, or a complete shutdown.. 

 

No thank you. My machine is being overclocked, and tested for reliability before my apps get loaded on, thank you.

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Manipulating bus speed, voltage, etc. is precisely what leads to the file corruption, which is why you need the overclock to be stable before installing software. Start tinkering with your overclock after you install FSX, and you will see the "issues" you're referring to.

So the OS is not considered software?

 

It really doesn't matter to me, as I don't have the need to ever OC.

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So the OS is not considered software?

 

It really doesn't matter to me, as I don't have the need to ever OC.

 

Yes, but Jim, when are you gonna finally leave FS4 behind and join the rest of us?

 

Cheers!

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 What happens when you want to install a new program? Do you set everything back to default speed, install, and then OC again? 

 

You're creating a red herring argument, Jim - if you had ever overclocked, you would know that a normal proc idles at 1.6 gig or so, bumping to 3.4, and perhaps 4.6 (or whatever) under load. Installation of any software doesn't usually trigger the full overclock, but even if it did, we already know it's stable at that speed.

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So the OS is not considered software?

 

It really doesn't matter to me, as I don't have the need to ever OC.

The OS is what needs to be stable. It's the foundation of your PC's operating environment. So, yes, you won't be well served in overclocking before installing Windows. For one thing, I'm not too sure there is a bootable version of Prime95.

So Trevor, What happens when you want to install a new program? Do you set everything back to default speed, install, and then OC again?

No, because you overclock BEFORE you install applications (other than Windows--see above). Once your overclock is stable, install away. If months from now you need to install a new program, go for it. I'm not sure how you would conclude that my approach (overclocking before installing applications) would require you to remove the overclock in order to install software.

 

I overclocked my 3770k to 4.6 in April and haven't visited bios or otherwise manipulated settings since. It's stable. I've since installed FSX and other applications without touching a thing.

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