Hi,

 

I am trying to figure out what exactly are the correct procedures to takeoff and land in icing conditions because I am reading different things about that. I already posted on majestic forum but I would be glad to have answer from a pilot.

 

Takeoff in icing conditions :

 

What are the Vspeed that need to be enhanced, what is the correct procedure?

 

-According to Flybe SOPs, only VCLIMB need to be enhanced by 20 kts and VR and V2 need to be enhanced to take into account the de-icing fluid.

-According to Majestic speed cards, VCLIMB and VFRI need to be enhanced by 20 kts, V2 also needs to be enhanced by 20 kts.

-According to tutorial 2 from Majestic, only VCLIMB and VFRI need to be enhanced by 20 kts

 

When and at what altitude is it safe to turn AIRFRAME DEICE to FAST? As soon as ice is building up on the airframe? Should I wait for acceleration altitude beofore turning the system on?

 

Landing in icing conditions :

 

I understand that  VREF, VAPP  and VGA should be enhanced by 20 kts in icing conditions. Does that mean that those speeds should be enhanced only when “ICE DETECTED” is displayed or ice is visually detected, or always as soon as we are expecting flying in icing conditions even if ice is not building up on the aircraft.

For exemple, I am expecting an approach within stratus layer down to 400ft (so flight in visible moisture) and SAT is below +5°C. How do I set my Vspeed? Should I add the + 20 kts even if ice does not build up on the aircraft during approach? If ice is building up, should I keep AIRFRAME DEICE on  FAST during the approach?

When VREF is enhanced by 20 kts does that mean I need to keep that speed until flare and touch down?

 

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated,

 

Best regards,

Hi,

 

I am trying to figure out what exactly are the correct procedures to takeoff and land in icing conditions because I am reading different things about that. I already posted on majestic forum but I would be glad to have answer from a pilot.

 

Takeoff in icing conditions :

 

What are the Vspeed that need to be enhanced, what is the correct procedure?

 

-According to Flybe SOPs, only VCLIMB need to be enhanced by 20 kts and VR and V2 need to be enhanced to take into account the de-icing fluid.

-According to Majestic speed cards, VCLIMB and VFRI need to be enhanced by 20 kts, V2 also needs to be enhanced by 20 kts.

-According to tutorial 2 from Majestic, only VCLIMB and VFRI need to be enhanced by 20 kts

 

When and at what altitude is it safe to turn AIRFRAME DEICE to FAST? As soon as ice is building up on the airframe? Should I wait for acceleration altitude beofore turning the system on?

 

Landing in icing conditions :

 

I understand that VREF, VAPP and VGA should be enhanced by 20 kts in icing conditions. Does that mean that those speeds should be enhanced only when “ICE DETECTED” is displayed or ice is visually detected, or always as soon as we are expecting flying in icing conditions even if ice is not building up on the aircraft.

For exemple, I am expecting an approach within stratus layer down to 400ft (so flight in visible moisture) and SAT is below +5°C. How do I set my Vspeed? Should I add the + 20 kts even if ice does not build up on the aircraft during approach? If ice is building up, should I keep AIRFRAME DEICE on FAST during the approach?

When VREF is enhanced by 20 kts does that mean I need to keep that speed until flare and touch down?

 

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated,

 

Best regards,

We will be featuring a flight in icing conditions covering all these winter ops questions in the First Officer course. I'll ask one of our Q400 pilots for some clarification however.

Hey there, long time!

 

The icing procedures in the Dash 8 are a little... different...

 

Any time you visually see ice on the aircraft during flight, you'd turn on the REF SPEED INCR switch- you'll notice that this effectively raises the low speed cue about 20 knots. So, on landing, you must adjust your Vref by adding 20 knots. Go around speed must be adjusted as well. During landing, you'll fly that faster speed. Yes, the plane will tend to float a little more and you'll have a completely different set of power settings to worry about. 

 

As far as approach planning- it is always good practice to set the REF SPEEDS INCR switch ahead of time- even before you need it, and do your appropriate performance and speed planning. This is the most conservative method, and it means you'll be protected and no further action is required. Imagine if you didn't have any of this planned, and then halfway through an ILS, you found out you needed everything. Additionaly, there's an aircraft limitation that you can't change the position of the REF SPEEDS INCR switch below 1000ft- which is good practice- if you were flying a normal Vref, you'd probably immediately get a stick shaker. 

 

Before takeoff- if you need ice protection, turn on everything except for the wing boots and the INCR REF switch. You don't want to have that on for takeoff (because as soon as weight leaves the wheels, you'll get that nasty stick shaker again!). After takeoff passing through 1000ft AGL, the FO should set the ice protection correctly- including wing boots and the REF SPEEDS switch. 

 

This is a little simplified, but should give you a better idea of the "switchery."

 

Ben- I'd love to have a shared cockpit session with your Q400 FO!

Thank you very much to both Ben and Brendan for your fast answers!

 

I now have a good picture regarding how to deal with icing conditions in the Q400.  I have one question left though. During takeoff, all Vspeed need to be enhanced by 20 kts, is that right? Even V2? or do we consider we always will be VCLIMB + 20kts before switching REF SPEEDS and boots after passing 1000FT AGL?

 

I am looking forward to watch the next step in Airline2sim Q400 videos. Hope it won't take long^^

 

Thank you very much again

 

Pierre

I'm trying to remember back to my dash days.... I believe you increase all the speeds for landing, however for takeoff- you won't be taking off with the REF switch on, so those remain as normal. However, your Vfri and Vclimb (I might be wrong, but this sounds reasonable) must be increased, since at the 1000ft point, you'll be retracting flaps, and turning the ice protection switches on. 

When I get home I'll peer into my old manuals. It's gonna bug me!

Thank you for this information Brendan. That is what I thought at first. I will be glad to hear the final word from you when you will have time to look at the manual.

 

Have good flights!

 

Pierre

Pierre...

 

For Takeoff into icing conditions existing below 1000ft AGL (visibility 1SM or less, temperature below +10C), according to our old FAA approved manuals:

 

V1 - not increased, as this has to deal with balanced field, brake energy limitations, weight, runway length, etc. In fact, on contaminated runways this value will DECREASE. 

VR - not increased

V2 - not increased

Vfri (fri = flap retract initiation speed, the speed above which it is ok to retract the flaps) - increase by 20 knots

Vclimb - increase by 20 knots. 

 

Why just the last two speeds? When you hit 1000ft AGL, you pitch over and accelerate past V2 (of course, on two engines you'll be naturally faster than V2- but for single engine ops, you'll target V2 as the minimum, and best performance speed). Also, above 1000 AGL, the aircraft limitations state that it is permissable to change the position of the REF SPEEDs switch. The top two speeds must respect the new stick shaker/stall reference speed, so we increase those by 20. 

 

From the CFM: "above 1000 AGL, and a minimum airspeed of Vclimb + 20knots, the REF SPEED switch may be moved to the INCR position."

 

If you're taking off into icing conditions that exist ABOVE 1000ft AGL (like, OVC 1400ft), use normal Vspeeds.

 

LANDING:

 

For flaps 15

Vref + 20 (solid blue bug)

Vga + 20 (open blue bug)

 

For Flaps 35

Vref + 15

Vga is the flaps 15 go around speed + 20knots (because remember, when you go around, you'll reduce flaps by a notch). This go around speed will probably be higher than Vref35+15knots. 

Time for a coffeee! BRRRR winter ops!

Hi Brendan,

 

Thank you so much for this piece of information ! It is all clear now. It is very nice of you to help simmers in such a way. Just have to try those winter ops at my home airport of Chambéry in the French Alps^^

 

Have nice flights high up!

 

Pierre

Hi,

 

It is me again :rolleyes:

 

I may have a little question about how the Q400 is operated at Chambéry airport LFLB which is where I fly and where Flybe Q400 also fly.

 

I know it will be featured in the next Q400 pilot course but maybe I can have a little insight?

 

- Do we have to fly the approach as a steep approach : the glideslope is 4.46° which is just below the 4.5° criteria of steep approach?

 

- Can we fly the ILS with FD and Autopilot engaged?

 

- If circling to RWY36, should I fly the ILS part with flaps 35 and continue with the circling part flaps 35? Or should I fly the approach flaps 15 in order to cycle flaps 15?

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Best regards,

 

Pierre

Fly it with LOC and use VS to follow the glideslope. From what I recall you'll need flaps 35 all the way down. Sadly the charts available to us are nothing like as comprehensive as the destination charts that the real airlines use for this arrival.

Hi,

 

Thanks for this information. It's just that it seems weird to me to circle with flaps 35 as it is a lot of drag for level flight but can't be sure.

 

By the way, I found a very interesting briefing regarding ops at Chambéry airport on pilotsbriefingroom.com.

 

http://pilotsbriefingroom.com/2012/11/29/chambery-france-cmflflb/

 

There are a lot of visual reference informations to help during the circling.

 

Best regards

 

Pierre

For all of our ops, it was suggested that flaps 35 could be delayed to prior to 500ft, due to the rumble and the drag.

Afternoon gents. I recently took a trip the Manchester airport for a couple of days of spotting, and noticed on the night time ops, none of the Flybe Dash 8's had their logo lights on, I was curious if this is SOP, or if they do not come fitted with a logo light in the real world?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Daniel

The latter is correct, Flybe didn't shell out for the optional logo lights.

 

In fact in the training we specifically mentioned that Dash 8's without logo lights can be hard to spot at night from the back.....

 

 

 

We didn't either... In fact, the beacon was a little weird too- it didn't flash, it was a kind of a glow-blink reminiscent of the old rotating beacons, which added to the dash 8 cloaking device.