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abasa12

LGIR STAR Help

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Hello Simmers,

 

Today, when planning my flight form Dusseldorf to Heraklion, I encountered some approaches that I didn't recognize. I found these approach charts, and they're the ones I'm using. So to begin with I entered all of the info into PFPX, and asked it to generate a route for me. It called for an approach on runway 9, which I have only seen once in a video. Regardless, I decided to follow through with runway 9, and looked at the charts. Immediately I realized that the BAVES2L (my planned STAR), along with all others, appeared to be some form of VOR approach (which unfortunately I'm not too familiar with). Not only that, but there's no IAP for runway 9. With an odd STAR and no arrival, I'm left wondering how on earth I'm supposed to fly the approach (I realize it's probably quite simple, and that I'm just not getting something here, but I've never seen anything like this before). Anyway, I'm using the NGX, if that gives an idea of how much is to be automated.

 

 

Thanks for any and all help - it's greatly appreciated!

 

 

-Derek

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I think the VOR-A approach would be suitable (pg. 32 in the charts pack)

It terminates at 2DME IRA and the inbound course change is so great the approach is in effect a circle to land with MDA of 1100'.

In other words, the last part is all visual :)

 

These types of procedures are not too uncommon around the mediterranean holiday resorts, especially the Greek islands.

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As SAS443 points out, the VOR-A is your man for runway 09 (really fun as well....). You will see the BAVES 2L connects with the VOR-A at ADORI.

 

Flying it that way is, erm, interesting. You'll see it displayed on your MFD ahead of time. Since on the STAR you're taking the 19 DME arc northbound, intercepting 144 to ADORI, then following the 12 DME back southbound to join the final 116 course.

 

The approach though like I said is a lot of fun, if you've ever shot the VOR 22L/R at Nice LFMN, you'll be familiar with the music of the approach with that nice little visual curve at the end. Keeps your hand flying in check!

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I think the VOR-A approach would be suitable (pg. 32 in the charts pack)

It terminates at 2DME IRA and the inbound course change is so great the approach is in effect a circle to land with MDA of 1100'.

In other words, the last part is all visual :)

 

These types of procedures are not too uncommon around the mediterranean holiday resorts, especially the Greek islands.

 

 

As SAS443 points out, the VOR-A is your man for runway 09 (really fun as well....). You will see the BAVES 2L connects with the VOR-A at ADORI.

 

Flying it that way is, erm, interesting. You'll see it displayed on your MFD ahead of time. Since on the STAR you're taking the 19 DME arc northbound, intercepting 144 to ADORI, then following the 12 DME back southbound to join the final 116 course.

 

The approach though like I said is a lot of fun, if you've ever shot the VOR 22L/R at Nice LFMN, you'll be familiar with the music of the approach with that nice little visual curve at the end. Keeps your hand flying in check!

 

Alright - thanks! So after ADORI it's the right turn onto the 12.0 DME Arc, before the left turn towards the VOR, and then a full turn to the left visually to land on runway 09? Now, as much as I would love to call myself an expert, I'm a little shaky on the whole VOR/DME idea. Is it, more or less, that I'll tune in the VOR frequency on NAV1, and attempt to maintain the distance measurements along the arc until the waypoints (for example to try to ensure that I remain at 19.0NM from the VOR on this STAR), or will I be able to program this into the FMC? In other words, what's the proper way to fly a DME Arc and subsequent VOR Approach in the NGX?

 

 

Thanks for all the help - really appreciated and important.

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Alright - thanks! So after ADORI it's the right turn onto the 12.0 DME Arc, before the left turn towards the VOR, and then a full turn to the left visually to land on runway 09? Now, as much as I would love to call myself an expert, I'm a little shaky on the whole VOR/DME idea. Is it, more or less, that I'll tune in the VOR frequency on NAV1, and attempt to maintain the distance measurements along the arc until the waypoints (for example to try to ensure that I remain at 19.0NM from the VOR on this STAR), or will I be able to program this into the FMC? In other words, what's the proper way to fly a DME Arc and subsequent VOR Approach in the NGX?

 

 

Thanks for all the help - really appreciated and important.

 

In basic terms, correct. There's a few ways to maintain a DME arc. If you're flying the NGX, it will practically do it for you if you program it correctly.

 

Two ways of hand flying it that are taught early on are the 'twist 10, turn 10' method, and flying the bearing pointer. Twist 10, turn 10 means you turn 90 degrees from the radial you are on, and twist ahead 10 degrees on the course. After the CDI centers, you turn heading 10 degrees, then twist ahead on the course 10 degrees. You would adjust your heading changes appropriately with the wind if you needed to, sometimes keeping a heading or adding 5-10 degrees to it. Think of it as cutting the crust off of a pie, but maintaining the radius of it. This method wouldn't be practical at the speeds you'll be going, and would be more difficult with the workload involved.

 

The other method, flying the bearing pointer, would be easier with the NGX. You can tune into the VOR and bring up the bearing pointer on your ND. In essence, all you do is keep the bearing pointer at or close to 90 degrees off your left or right wing, depending on the direction you need to go and any wind correction. For instance, on the 12 DME arc to the final course, the bearing pointer would be on your left wing, since the VOR is left of you and you are heading south. The whole objective is to remain at 12 DME from the station until you are to intercept the inbound course. If you look at the chart for the VOR -A, you'll see that there is a grey 306 degree radial, in this case, that will be your "lead radial". Dial this radial into your course, once you reach it, turn left 45 degrees to your inbound course of 116, which would be a 161 heading. Then, dial in the 116 course, and intercept it.

 

7 DME is your final approach fix, noted by the Maltese cross on the profile view of the approach, where you should be at 2800'. 2 DME is your missed approach point and MDA of 1100', but usually in that area you'll have sight of the runway much earlier than that. All you do from there is fly visually to a normal landing!

 

To visualize this, I've circled the lead radial and the inbound course:

 

post-257544-0-22323400-1389072232.jpg

 

This is just a small, difficult short tutorial via text, as I'm used to teaching this actually in the aircraft. All the same, I hope it helps!

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In basic terms, correct. There's a few ways to maintain a DME arc. If you're flying the NGX, it will practically do it for you if you program it correctly.

 

Two ways of hand flying it that are taught early on are the 'twist 10, turn 10' method, and flying the bearing pointer. Twist 10, turn 10 means you turn 90 degrees from the radial you are on, and twist ahead 10 degrees on the course. After the CDI centers, you turn heading 10 degrees, then twist ahead on the course 10 degrees. You would adjust your heading changes appropriately with the wind if you needed to, sometimes keeping a heading or adding 5-10 degrees to it. Think of it as cutting the crust off of a pie, but maintaining the radius of it. This method wouldn't be practical at the speeds you'll be going, and would be more difficult with the workload involved.

 

The other method, flying the bearing pointer, would be easier with the NGX. You can tune into the VOR and bring up the bearing pointer on your ND. In essence, all you do is keep the bearing pointer at or close to 90 degrees off your left or right wing, depending on the direction you need to go and any wind correction. For instance, on the 12 DME arc to the final course, the bearing pointer would be on your left wing, since the VOR is left of you and you are heading south. The whole objective is to remain at 12 DME from the station until you are to intercept the inbound course. If you look at the chart for the VOR -A, you'll see that there is a grey 306 degree radial, in this case, that will be your "lead radial". Dial this radial into your course, once you reach it, turn left 30 degrees to your inbound course of 116, which would be a 161 heading. Then, dial in the 116 course, and intercept it.

 

7 DME is your final approach fix, noted by the Maltese cross on the profile view of the approach, where you should be at 2800'. 2 DME is your missed approach point and MDA of 1100', but usually in that area you'll have sight of the runway much earlier than that. All you do from there is fly visually to a normal landing!

 

To visualize this, I've circled the lead radial and the inbound course:

 

attachicon.gifCapture.JPG

 

This is just a small, difficult short tutorial via text, as I'm used to teaching this actually in the aircraft. All the same, I hope it helps!

No - this is definitely very helpful. I never knew any of this before - so it's great to finally know! So in regards to the bearing pointer, is that just a matter of putting the ND into APP mode, or is there another way to bring it up? And lastly, you say that these are two ways of hand flying a VOR approach. From what you know or have experienced, do you think that approach like this would usually be hand-flown in a 737NG, or is there a way to program it into the autoflight system? When I've encountered something like this before all I've done is insert a fix around the VOR with the radial being the heading given in the gray lines and the distance being the DX.X value. Is this anywhere near the right track (excuse my pun)? And on the final approach course (116 degrees), at what point would I break off to align myself with the runway? The others seemed to think it was at D2.0 that I would circle around as if on a missed approach to line myself up. Is that correct? Thanks for all of this, I've decided to jump straight to Heraklion to try these approaches before I even think about trying one in my flight.

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Give me a few, I'll do a shot by shot since I've no video software.


EDIT to add shots:

 

Personally, hand flying is the way to go. There is no automated system to take you all the way down on this one, so, like it or not it's on you! It's worth it though......

 

1) 108.8 in the box, IRA identified. 144 course and 14 DME to identify ADORI. ND is in VOR mode, just disengaged AP:

 

3w8p.jpg

 

 

2) On the 12 DME arc, Lead Radial 306 (126 course) dialed in, bearing pointer is the green arrow circled. I'm waiting for the pink CDI to center, then turning to heading 161 to intercept the final course:

 

c2rg.jpg

 

 

3) Crossed the Lead Radial, changed course to 116, the inbound course. Flying 161 to intercept:

 

9pkq.jpg

 

 

4) 116 final course set, passed 7.0 DME, which is the FAF, so beginning descent:

 

vcxs.jpg

 

 

5) Runway is in sight, adjust to make final:

 

bbed.jpg

 

 

6) Looking good! Final items complete:

 

j1fo.jpg

 

 

7) Welcome to LGIR!

 

mtg4.jpg

 

 

Hopefully you can combine my text before and the screenshots here to better understand what I'm trying to convey! I tried to zoom out a bit to keep the important stuff in the shots. Forgive the lazy heading bug, was more concerned with the main points. If you want more detailed shots, let me know, I kept them smaller to accommodate the screenshot rules here.

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That is amazing. Thank you so much for all of this. Just dealing with a last-minute set of CTD's, but in all honesty this has brought me from no knowledge to tonnes of it. I really can't thank you enough. I'll reply if I have any questions, though I doubt I will.

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That is amazing. Thank you so much for all of this. Just dealing with a last-minute set of CTD's, but in all honesty this has brought me from no knowledge to tonnes of it. I really can't thank you enough. I'll reply if I have any questions, though I doubt I will.

 

No problem! If you want further reading on DME arcs, check out pages 9-17 to 9-22 in the FAA's Instrument Flying Handbook: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-15B.pdf

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No problem! If you want further reading on DME arcs, check out pages 9-17 to 9-22 in the FAA's Instrument Flying Handbook: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-15B.pdf

Just one small question - how do I maintain the DME Arc? I'm using the HUD, and I can see the DME, but I seem to be chasing it. Looking at my flight plan is looking at a squiggly line that in no way resembles a DME Arc. Is this just something that comes with practice, should I enter a FMC fix, or is there something in the displays I'm missing?

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Just one small question - how do I maintain the DME Arc? I'm using the HUD, and I can see the DME, but I seem to be chasing it. Looking at my flight plan is looking at a squiggly line that in no way resembles a DME Arc. Is this just something that comes with practice, should I enter a FMC fix, or is there something in the displays I'm missing?

 

While some practice will be involved, especially at high speeds, it can be relatively simple if you use your MFD/ND. On the second picture of the NGX of mine above, you'll see the middle red circle I put in there, circling the bearing pointer. It's that green arrow. If you notice, it's directly off my left wing, pointing towards the VOR. In a no-wind/light wind condition, that's all you have to do to maintain the arc, keep the bearing pointer 90 degrees to your left or right.

 

Depending on the wind direction, you nose may have to point into or away from the VOR.

 

Here's a top-tier  :P  paint drawing to illustrate :

 

ru4e.png

 

 

You'll see the DME arc is literally just the portion of a circle. If you were to keep at 12 DME for a while you'd complete a circle. So, if you keep your ground track right on that 12 DME circle, you will keep the arc. The light green arrow pointing from the aircraft to the VORTAC drawn represents the green bearing pointer I referred to above.

 

Moving at higher speeds, and closer to the VOR, you'll basically have to find a turn rate that will maintain the arc. As you can see in my 2nd screenshot, the bank angle was about 6-7 degrees at 173 kts IAS and 179 kts GS. If you are going faster, you'll have more bank. If you're slower, less bank. If you're closer to the VOR, you'll have more bank, since the arc, or circle, is smaller. Farther out, you'll need less bank.

 

An easy way to practice? Load up, go to a VOR, and play around with intercepting and tracking an arc. Do one at 20 miles and 250 kts. Next, track inbound a radial off the arc, and intercept 15 miles and 200 kts. Then, track a new radial inbound and do one at 10 miles and 200 kts. You'll get a feel for how the turn required changes with different distances. Then, on any of the arcs, increase your speed to 250 kts and try to maintain the arc. Then, go down to 160 kts. You'll see it is a game of feel almost and finding that sweet spot.

 

The other way of tracking an arc that I mentioned in my second post was the 'twist 10, turn 10' method. This can be a LOT of work at high speed and close to the VOR. I'd suggest trying it further out if you want. Steps?

 

Example: Track the 20 DME arc southbound to the 180 radial.

 

- Go about 30 miles from a VOR, and track the 270 radial to the VOR (so 090 course TO the station).

- Use the 20 DME arc.

- At about 21 DME, all depending on groundspeed, turn right to a heading of 180. This will put the VOR on your left side.

- Now, twist the course knob to 10 degrees ahead of you. (Since you were on a 090 course, twist to 080)

 

- When your CDI centers on 080, turn left heading 170.

- Twist course to 070.

 

- When your CDI centers on 070, turn left heading 160.

- Twist course to 060.

 

You keep doing this every 10 degrees of radials you pass, until your course reads your inbound/outbound desired radial/course. In our example, you would do it until you read the 360 course. You would of course lead the turn a little, and intercept and track that 360 course inbound.

 

Another astounding paint picture time:

 

390n.png

 

 

As said, that method is a lot of work at high speeds, but try it out! You can see you're literally just cutting around the edges, instead of drawing an actual circle with your ground track (highlighted by the black and grey straight lines). It's a difficult concept to portray via text and pictures, but hopefully it'll help!

 

EDIT: And if you don't want to do any of this, the NGX is saavy enough that you can load DME arcs when they're on STARs or IAP's, you just need to select the appropriate entry waypoint that will be on the arc! That is borderline cheating though.... :wink: :ph34r:

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While some practice will be involved, especially at high speeds, it can be relatively simple if you use your MFD/ND. On the second picture of the NGX of mine above, you'll see the middle red circle I put in there, circling the bearing pointer. It's that green arrow. If you notice, it's directly off my left wing, pointing towards the VOR. In a no-wind/light wind condition, that's all you have to do to maintain the arc, keep the bearing pointer 90 degrees to your left or right.

 

Depending on the wind direction, you nose may have to point into or away from the VOR.

 

Here's a top-tier  :P  paint drawing to illustrate :

 

ru4e.png

 

 

You'll see the DME arc is literally just the portion of a circle. If you were to keep at 12 DME for a while you'd complete a circle. So, if you keep your ground track right on that 12 DME circle, you will keep the arc. The light green arrow pointing from the aircraft to the VORTAC drawn represents the green bearing pointer I referred to above.

 

Moving at higher speeds, and closer to the VOR, you'll basically have to find a turn rate that will maintain the arc. As you can see in my 2nd screenshot, the bank angle was about 6-7 degrees at 173 kts IAS and 179 kts GS. If you are going faster, you'll have more bank. If you're slower, less bank. If you're closer to the VOR, you'll have more bank, since the arc, or circle, is smaller. Farther out, you'll need less bank.

 

An easy way to practice? Load up, go to a VOR, and play around with intercepting and tracking an arc. Do one at 20 miles and 250 kts. Next, track inbound a radial off the arc, and intercept 15 miles and 200 kts. Then, track a new radial inbound and do one at 10 miles and 200 kts. You'll get a feel for how the turn required changes with different distances. Then, on any of the arcs, increase your speed to 250 kts and try to maintain the arc. Then, go down to 160 kts. You'll see it is a game of feel almost and finding that sweet spot.

 

The other way of tracking an arc that I mentioned in my second post was the 'twist 10, turn 10' method. This can be a LOT of work at high speed and close to the VOR. I'd suggest trying it further out if you want. Steps?

 

Example: Track the 20 DME arc southbound to the 180 radial.

 

- Go about 30 miles from a VOR, and track the 270 radial to the VOR (so 090 course TO the station).

- Use the 20 DME arc.

- At about 21 DME, all depending on groundspeed, turn right to a heading of 180. This will put the VOR on your left side.

- Now, twist the course knob to 10 degrees ahead of you. (Since you were on a 090 course, twist to 080)

 

- When your CDI centers on 080, turn left heading 170.

- Twist course to 070.

 

- When your CDI centers on 070, turn left heading 160.

- Twist course to 060.

 

You keep doing this every 10 degrees of radials you pass, until your course reads your inbound/outbound desired radial/course. In our example, you would do it until you read the 360 course. You would of course lead the turn a little, and intercept and track that 360 course inbound.

 

Another astounding paint picture time:

 

390n.png

 

 

As said, that method is a lot of work at high speeds, but try it out! You can see you're literally just cutting around the edges, instead of drawing an actual circle with your ground track (highlighted by the black and grey straight lines). It's a difficult concept to portray via text and pictures, but hopefully it'll help!

 

EDIT: And if you don't want to do any of this, the NGX is saavy enough that you can load DME arcs when they're on STARs or IAP's, you just need to select the appropriate entry waypoint that will be on the arc! That is borderline cheating though.... :wink: :ph34r:

No - I fully understand what you mean by it. It's tracing the circle as more of a 36-sided polygon. And as for the other one, I probably will try some practice. It's great to improve my knowledge as such. Just two questions about this in the NGX specifically, though - how can the VOR/LOC button on the MCP help or work alongside this, and would it be theoretically possible or realistic to program a 12NM fix around the VOR, and just follow the line? Anyway, thanks for all your help. Definitely above and beyond by a longshot.

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Try what Kyle patiently teach you, then you will end up to be a real pilot.

The VOR/LOC only capture a radial from a VOR.

If you want the dark side or the magenta way use place bearing distance method, IRI324/14(ADORI).

Go in FIX page type IRI then type the costum radial/distance down select and place it in the flight plan, build you ARC by 10° segment so the autopilot will follow.

 

EDIT:

I  forgot to say that if you put a vor in FIX page and a radial/distance it will draw a dot green circle on the Navigation Display that you can follow manually.

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Try what Kyle patiently teach you, then you will end up to be a real pilot.

The VOR/LOC only capture a radial from a VOR.

If you want the dark side or the magenta way use place bearing distance method, IRI324/14(ADORI).

Go in FIX page type IRI then type the costum radial/distance down select and place it in the flight plan, build you ARC by 10° segment so the autopilot will follow.

OK - thanks. I'll try that as well.

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After the D7 IRA of the VOR-A, enter a custom fix IRA272/7. Be there at 2800 feet, and you should be fine.

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Just to add to the other's responses, if you go to Tutorial 2 in your NGX documents, go to page 101. It starts of saying "Let's now take a look at some useful....."

 

It goes through how to add radials and range rings to fixes, pictures and all. Just supplement "TESGA" with "IRA" or whichever fix/navaid you'd like! Have fun!

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