14FEB14 - PMDG 777-200LR/F SP1 & 300ER Update

[masneoquil 66]

Here's the topic we discussed that:

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/435258-efb/

 Thanks!

[scandinavian13 5,192]

That's exactly what I said in the end of my post and I agree with you, it's pointless to do only charts, and PMDG wouldn't do an EFB with just charts anyway.  I'm still confused about the licensing aspect of the data/charts etc and I don't think what you're saying is totally correct.  It should be the same as licensing NAV data which almost every quality aircraft add on does these days.   But whatever.  I'm not too concerned about it.  Actually the little paper clip on the current EFB cover works perfect in the sim when holding my paper charts. haha

 

Glad we agree on the modeling part, but I'm confused as to where the disconnect is on the licensing.  It's really not the same as licensing nav data, at all.  Nav data is a completely separate product, which is also evidenced by the fact that it's a completely separate cost when you purchase that data through the sources you allude to.  My purchase of nav data at Navigraph does not include charts.  The reason is that it's either a separate purchase for them, or it's a separate development cost.

 

Moreover, getting to, and converting that nav data from the existing format into whatever format is necessary for the add-on is a simple, programmatic process once you've done it the first time (first time to set up the automation - the rest of the times, you just run it).  I'm speaking from experience, here (FAA .DAT files for controller RVMs into various formats, along with the various DERS products out there).  With charts it's a different story.  Not all charts are updated every cycle (evidenced by the fact that it's been the Captial 8 departure for a few years now).  As such, some sources only provide the service provider with updates.  You can see this if you go to the FAA d-tpp site.  There's a specific section for "updates only."

 

Next time you're around a pilot for a commercial airline, ask them about chart revisions.  In order to cut down on the costs of development, printing, and so on, the service provider (we'll say Jeppesen here) only provides the charts that have changed since the last cycle.  The pilot must then take this handful of charts and manually integrate it into the existing charts, ripping out the old ones in the process.  That, of course, is the manual method.

 

In a digital sense, that requirement has been mostly pushed back to Jepp itself.  They have to get the new charts (worldwide, mind you, so different formats, file naming conventions, and so on) and integrate them into the existing charting product.  This, of course, is a slightly less automated process and not as simple as the nav data issue.

 

The nav data provided by the ANSP (whichever one that may be) is generally cumulative.  This means that the source file they provide overwrites all of the previous data.  That means that there really isn't much error checking to be done.  Get file, convert it, and overwrite what's there.  Simple.  Charts, on the other hand are incremental.  There's a decent amount of work that needs to go into that to verify what updated actually gets updated and what should remain, remains.  If you've ever worked with database backups (which these very closely parallel, thus the borrowed terminology of cumulative and incremental - also, speaking from experience here), you'll understand how different the processes truly are.

 

So, there's the background.  Additionally, chart providers often have to create the charts themselves.  This, of course, cannot be automated (though, once the chart is first created, most of the work is done for future updates).  The process of updating them is entirely manual.  As such, the cost of having a human do that work is passed on to the consumer.  This is why charting subscriptions cost as much as they do.

 

Final example:

Updating the nav data for the Cessna I fly most often (recently, anyway) is $300/year for the entire world (Garmin).

Getting charts for the entire world is $12,623 (Jeppesen - no joke).  This is more than simply IAPs, however.

[CaptCraig 226]

 

 

Glad we agree on the modeling part,

 

I get what you're saying.  I'm a pilot too and up here in Canada we do the same thing when updating charts as you probably know.  I remember the good ole days of ripping out what seemed like hundreds of paper charts, and carefully replacing them with the new ones in the same spot in the binder as it was before.  Got some paper cuts too.  I think the disconnect is I'm thinking about Navigraph's charts and not necessarily about implementing a real world database.  PMDG even could do just a PDF reader and that way nobody would have to worry about any subscription.  The bottom line is there is a way around paying a hefty subscription price, but like I said in my first reply I really don't care too much about it.  For me anyway it would be a novelty type thing to have it working in the cockpit.  I can't actually see myself using it.  Now the taxi camera!  I can't wait to give that a go.  

[Nixon 30]

Glad we agree on the modeling part, but I'm confused as to where the disconnect is on the licensing.  It's really not the same as licensing nav data, at all.  Nav data is a completely separate product, which is also evidenced by the fact that it's a completely separate cost when you purchase that data through the sources you allude to.  My purchase of nav data at Navigraph does not include charts.  The reason is that it's either a separate purchase for them, or it's a separate development cost.

The yearly subscription for all of Navigraph charts (enroute and airport) is 59.90 euros inc VAT.Or just under five euros a month or in other words less than the cost of two beers or two thirds the cost of PMDG's 777. I only download the charts I need and when they need to be updated a little dot next to the chart or airport name will change from green to amber. I then just download that airport's charts and it's automatically replaced, It's very easy to do. As am a flight simmer and not an airline I only update a chart when I intend to fly to or from that airport. After all this is a hobby and not a job.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

The bottom line is there is a way around paying a hefty subscription price, but like I said in my first reply I really don't care too much about it.

 

That's definitely true.  The PDF displayer would certainly work, but for a lazy guy like me, it would have to be a fully-implemented product for me to use it.  I could just as easily go to the FAA site prior to all of my RW flights to get the current charts for free, but I pay $80ish a year to get them delivered to me at the press of a DOWNLOAD button.  The charts are NACO charts, which you can get for free from the FAA site, so really, I'm just paying for the maintenance ance ease of use.  I know I approach the sim with more of a RW mindset, given my background and reasons for using it, but still.  I don't want to have to bother with that stuff.  I want the chart there for me all ready and current...

 

 

 

The yearly subscription for all of Navigraph charts (enroute and airport) is 59.90 euros inc VAT.Or just under six euros a month or in other words the cost of two beers or two thirds the cost of PMDG's 777.

 

Right, but that's nowhere near worldwide coverage.  Granted, for a sim-related site, it's impressive how much coverage it does have, but if it was worldwide, the US would be covered in red entirely.  It gets the major stuff, which is important for something like the 777, but there are still too many fields missing for my liking if I'm going to be paying for the service.

 

In any case, it's a reasonable substitute for the more expensive services if someone so chooses, but again, if you're going to integrate something into your product and want to satisfy the end user, you have to make it flexible enough to accommodate them.  What if the Navigraph data doesn't cover a crucial airport I fly to?  Who provides the data I need?  If that's another provider, it should be flexible enough to accommodate that.  What if I need a real world charting provider to get those charts?  If you try to make it too flexible to accommodate all of that, then it either gets too complex behind the scenes (programming-wise), or it gets really bland and generic.

 

 

 

I really think you all should take a moment to step back and understand that you might not have a full grasp on what all goes into these processes - costs or otherwise.  It's really not as simple as you think.  Sure, there may be a simple answer, but is that the right, or best answer?

[AirCanada235 103]

Kyle - 

 

Are you a holder of a current pilots license and if so, for recreation or income?

[CaptCraig 226]

 

 

That's definitely true.

 

Oh my God FOR SURE!  I agree 100%.  I think I even said something along those lines way up this thread.  If it's not 100% like the RW counterpart there is no point in PMDG even trying to develop it.  I'm one of those RW type simmers too.  

[Nixon 30]

Oh my God FOR SURE!  I agree 100%.  I think I even said something along those lines way up this thread.  If it's not 100% like the RW counterpart there is no point in PMDG even trying to develop it.  I'm one of those RW type simmers too.

Well I doubt very much that any developer claims their simulation is 100% like the real world counterpart. I can't speak for PMDG but I have never seen them make such a claim so in all probability they have developed simulations that are not 100% like the real world counterpart.

[Nixon 30]

I really think you all should take a moment to step back and understand that you might not have a full grasp on what all goes into these processes - costs or otherwise.  It's really not as simple as you think.  Sure, there may be a simple answer, but is that the right, or best answer?

Kyle thank you for pointing out that I or other contributors to this thread haven't a full grasp of what goes into these processes. To say that you obviously think you do.

 

As I said in my last post this is just a hobby nothing more nothing less. There is no correct or best answer. I am more than happy for you to undertake this hobby in any way you wish to. I just posted the navigraph information to show that you can procure charts reasonably inexpensively. I have never claimed it's perfect, it just suits simple old me and maybe some others will find the information useful.

[oskiatl 27]

 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Are you a holder of a current pilots license and if so, for recreation or income?

 

Yes.  Currently just to dig a giant hole in my wallet, but my income does come from the aviation realm.  Why do you ask?

 

 

 

Kyle thank you for pointing out that I or other contributors to this thread haven't a full grasp of what goes into these processes. To say that you obviously think you do.

 

You're welcome.  And I do know.  I don't know the details of PMDG's own licensing issues, but my work in the aviation realm regularly exposes me to them.

 

Just because this is a hobby doesn't mean we're somehow immune to the costs of using data that's linked to the real world.  The fact is, in the end, the data comes from the real world, from real world nav sources - charts, nav data, or otherwise.  Prices are set for those for the real world, and not for flight sim.  Some of the time, we can get away with discounts from the right people in cases where the developer doesn't make money, or only sells on an entertainment-based license, but it's all based on the agreement between the two parties.

 

When I first started simming, we didn't have sites like AirNav, SimRoutes, SkyVector and the like.  I had to get charts from my pilot neighbor, and later (after he moved), had to go buy them from a local FBO.  It didn't matter to them if I was using them for real flight, for sim flight, or for wrapping paper: the price was the price.  In many cases, it's still like that.

[CaptCraig 226]

Well I doubt very much that any developer claims their simulation is 100% like the real world counterpart. I can't speak for PMDG but I have never seen them make such a claim so in all probability they have developed simulations that are not 100% like the real world counterpart.

 

I use 100% rather loosely if that makes you feel better.  I'm fairly certain you know what I meant.  

Can't wait to try it, even as a 2D popup.

 

[Nixon 30]

Yes.  Currently just to dig a giant hole in my wallet, but my income does come from the aviation realm.  Why do you ask?

 

 

 

 

You're welcome.  And I do know.  I don't know the details of PMDG's own licensing issues, but my work in the aviation realm regularly exposes me to them.

 

Just because this is a hobby doesn't mean we're somehow immune to the costs of using data that's linked to the real world.  The fact is, in the end, the data comes from the real world, from real world nav sources - charts, nav data, or otherwise.  Prices are set for those for the real world, and not for flight sim.  Some of the time, we can get away with discounts from the right people in cases where the developer doesn't make money, or only sells on an entertainment-based license, but it's all based on the agreement between the two parties.

 

When I first started simming, we didn't have sites like AirNav, SimRoutes, SkyVector and the like.  I had to get charts from my pilot neighbor, and later (after he moved), had to go buy them from a local FBO.  It didn't matter to them if I was using them for real flight, for sim flight, or for wrapping paper: the price was the price.  In many cases, it's still like that.

Kyle I know all that,as you have been making basically the same point in your last few posts. Just because I use Navigraph charts doesn't mean that I don't understand the commercial world.

[Nixon 30]

I use 100% rather loosely if that makes you feel better.  I'm fairly certain you know what I meant.  

 

Can't wait to try it, even as a 2D popup.

I see that you are quite happy to accept that PMDG have had to compromise over the taxi camera. I have no problem with that nor would it bother me if they decided to produce an "EFB mini".

[turner447 0]

Have we got potential price for this?