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Is there a forum out there where a user can voice his or her opinion about some of the developers, whether it be negative or positve, without the constant censorship of locked threads?I really think users need to be made aware of some of the problems with devolopers, before they make a purchase through these sites.Thanks

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Couple of suggestions:1.) start your own complaint forum2.) hire lawyer3.) pay lawyer contingent fee by the month4.) pay lawyer one time fee to draft "terms of use and indemnification statement"5.) allow users to ignore common laws - you know, libel, slander, etc.6.) pay lawyer to respond to "cease and desist" letters from offended companies/individuals/whomever7.) insist on your rights of free speach8.) pay lawyer to defend you in court of law for defamation9.) pay claimant for succesful defamation suitYou get the gist. Free speach on your very own complaint forum could get expensive. If you are not willing to do that, then why would you expect any adult to shoulder the responsibility for you? We sure as hell won't and any right-thinking webmaster won't either. If complaints are stated in an adult and non-defamatory way, they are allowed here. Vendors are allowed to respond and that's the way it should be. But when the line is crossed, we'll shut the threads down, and usually for the very right reasons. If you want to play by some other rules (i.e., you want to allow rants), then feel free to set up your own forum but be prepared for the consequences. :)

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I take it then you are implying that we do not allow negative comments on this forum, and that by locking threads we are censoring you. And apparently we lock threads all the time and you cannot rant whenever you want?Out policy has always been that if the posts remain civilized, such threads are allowed until both sides have had chances to be heard and that nothing new is coming.It has been my experience that by allow such threads to linger, they eventually degrade.Any posts that violate the Terms and Conditions you agree to when you register will be removed.If this is not acceptable...BTW, if I sound kinda peeved, I am.

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I thought I typed fast...wow! :-lol

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I wasn't trying too offend you, I agree with you on the rants. But, when someone has a personal experience with a devoloper that is negative.. Such as, poor customer service and the lack there of, I think it should be allowed to be heard. We need to know these things, as too prevent us from making the same mistake.I read a post somewhere on another site the other day regarding the flight dynamics of the payware DC-9, this person was apperently more then qualified too make his case as I think he was a real DC-9 Pilot. The thread was locked and that was it. He made no mention of what product he was talking about.I have become very cautious about spending money for FS2004 because of this, there are just some sites that are so unfriendly its not worth the time or the effort. I have been buying addons since Flight Simulator 4, and it just seems like the industry is taking a negative downward spiral because of these types of companies.Again, I did not mean too offend you guys.. I just wanted to ask..Thanks

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Actually Tom...there is a complaint forum. if you want to post this stuff...do it on usenet. I suggest alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim orcomp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim. These are totally unmoderated and whining is fine. Actually anybody who wants to have a totally unfettered conversation can find a usenet group for just about any topic... Just stay out of those binaries groups if you dont want an "education" (doh!).Eric

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Shakespeare was right :-) .

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I guess then that we will have to delete every single post which could be considered "libel".Let's see, this will be easy:use forum.databasedelete all from forum.databaseI'm glad the courts have cleared this up for us. :-rollI guess I have to add this now:DISCLAIMER : this message is my opinion only and does not reflect the opinions of AVSim.com or any of its staff.And now I'm moving this to the Hangar forum...

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Not really. You'll have to delete posts that are libellous when you're made aware of them being so via proper channels.An ISP can't be expected (and likely isn't even allowed under privacy laws) to monitor everything their members do, but when they're given notice that their members are breaking the law (either civil or criminal) they have a responsibility to prevent that from happening and set right the wrongs if they can just like any citizen does.IMO that's not a bad thing, as long as it's not abused (which it is likely to be in the sUe-them States of America).

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I can, to a certain extent, understand the cautious approach taken by the likes of AVSIM and possibly FLIGHTSIM when the sites are hosted in a country that has a litigation system that revolves around the mighty dollar.There are other flightsim sites hosted elsewhere in the world where the concept of "freedom of speech" is very different and much more liberal and reasoning. Even the Russian sites demonstrate a better understanding of the abilility to speak ones mind without fear of litigation. Not being subject to the same (IMHO ridiculous) legal threats, you will often see a different approach (and response) to the expression of ones opinions.There is a VERY good European flightsim site, where any concerns you may have or disatisfaction with a product can be discussed quite openly provided it does not degenerate to name calling and personal insults. A reflection I guess of a better cultural tolerance and acceptance of differing opinions and expectations. Some very basic rules and commonsense is however required and expected.Based on Tom's initial response (which afterall makes sense within the framework he has to operate), it occured to me that the "land of free speech" really is not, nor cannot be, so free due to such an incredible and ridiculous legal system which appears to be running out of control and beyond the realms of commonsense.E.G. A West Virginia convenience store worker was awarded a whopping $2,699,000 in punitive damages after she injured her back opening a pickle jar. The 'injured' worker also received $130,066 in compensation and $170,000 for emotional distress. You have got to chuckle at the end of the day. Only solution I guess is to castrate the lawyers and stop the parasites spreading. LOL Sue me if you want, but just my thoughts Dave B

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My last post on this topic:As was stated previously, we do not limit discussions negative or positive about commericial developers as long as the posts follow certain rules: mainly, keeping them civilized.Unfortunately, and this is not a mere USA problem, there are posters who cannot seem to stay within the boundaries that have been set. Once those boundaries are crossed, we take action.Freedom of speech does NOT mean freedom from responsibility. Remember you cannot yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater when there is no fire. This forum is the crowded theater.Just my 2 pence.

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I have a question,Did any of you even bother reading that case from the California State of Appeals?Did anyone see the context in which 1 ruling applied and why it applied only in that one instance while the rest of the allegations were dismissed?Does anyone know where that ruling applies in Law, and why only in that area?It really bothers me when people POTENTIALLY assume that a case suppresses FREE SPEECH when in Reality my OPINION is that some of those who are MISAPPLYING and QUOTING that case don't understand the realities, only choosing to listen to people that don't know diddly about the law. That case reinforced FREE SPEECH in some aspects, IMHO, by the dismissal of certain aspects of the case.The reason that ruling came about was because in ONE SINGLE instance of that case, someone had written something that WAS NOT TRUE. It was only after the defendant was advised to remove something that was not true, that this came about, then they wrote it again. (DARWIN AWARD, IMHO)If you read about that case, you will see that a bunch of other CLAIMS in that case WERE DISMISSED. Read that Again. DISMISSEDDISMISSEDDISMISSEDThat case was in California, where I live.I am not an Attorney, but I know and have studied enough about Speech to reason a LOGICAL Opinion.1) In California, you have a RIGHT to criticize any public entity2) As long as you speak the TRUTH, your speech is protected 100%.3) If someone suppresses your speech in California, the Attorney's can recover fees. (IE: Mess with someone in California and their right to Free speech, and an Attorney can take the case and recover fees.4) California has a Statute that says you can basically criticize a Public Corporation and when doing so that speech is subject to a special motion to strike, under Anti-Slapp Statute.(I quote this because many are quoting a case in which the ruling does not even apply in their state. This was a single STATE of CALIFORNIA COURT OF APPEALS CASE) You would think the whole world is subject to this ruling. WRONG......This is from My own site where I wrote:***************************I am located in The State of California, and I have rights.From:http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1609"The Leavitts have every right to criticize Savage

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Hi Jeroen,You said:"Not really. You'll have to delete posts that are libellous when you're made aware of them being so via proper channels.An ISP can't be expected (and likely isn't even allowed under privacy laws) to monitor everything their members do, but when they're given notice that their members are breaking the law (either civil or criminal) they have a responsibility to prevent that from happening and set right the wrongs if they can just like any citizen does.IMO that's not a bad thing, as long as it's not abused (which it is likely to be in the sUe-them States of America)."***************It can be a good thing, except when threats are used by people who have no clue as to what the law is, and rely on supression of speech by threatening legal action when in fact there is no basis for an action at all, IMHO.It is not notice that is given, some sites require a court order before they will remove anything.Some sites don't cave under FALSE pressure.Me I have the followong:I live in CaliforniaMy Host is in CaliforniaMy ISP is in CaliforniaMy Board Host is in California.IE: My ducks are all in a nice pretty row. :-) What really comes into play is whether the things that were said were TRUE or NOT. That is one of the main determining factors, IMHO, from the cases that I have read. But as far as abuse goes. Yeppers, there are most likely abusers who send threats around and put fear into legitimate sites only to suppress speech. And that is the shame of it all. But to their defense, there are also hosts that will gladly take their speech and protect their rights at the same time. You just have to know who to go with, I guess.Regards,Joe

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"There is a VERY good European flightsim site, where any concerns you may have or disatisfaction with a product can be discussed quite openly provided it does not degenerate to name calling and personal insults. A reflection I guess of a better cultural tolerance and acceptance of differing opinions and expectations. "And is all we are asking too. You are free to discuss products pro and con, but when accusations of theft, lying, deception (without substantive facts to support that claim) etc. break loose, as Ken points out, we take the necessary action to prevent further degrading of the conversation.

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I have no desire to get into any kind of debate. (With you or anyone else). That's a link I came across and unless and until it is overturned, it does have some bearing as to what can be said and done, and what responibilities ISP's hold.Let's also face the fact that you don't like me, and I don't like you and let it go at that. You seem to want to engage me in some sort of silly debate no matter what I post, and I'm just not going to let that occur.Bye!Darrell

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Hi Darrell,Actually Darrell, I have no feelings either way about you, and I could give a rip whether you or anyone else likes me or not as I am not here to be liked, let's get that part clear.So that sentance I find simply diverting the topic at hand that YOU BROUGHT UP, Not me.And do you even want to learn about what that ruling really means?I stand by everything I wrote. You talk about passing on a link, and that case only addressed an item where something FALSE was stated. Totally different than telling the truth about a public figure on the Internet. The only bearing that case had was regading a FALSE STATEMENT made by someone, and that is all. Nothing More, and it was a STATE OF CALIFORNIA RULING. Again, why post that link if not willing to debate it. So in your opinion, what Responsibilities in LAW does an ISP have based upon that ruling, in your Opinion.If you feel you don't want to debate, then why post such an article and then make a claim you cannot back up with facts.I suggest in the future, you check your facts prior to hitting the post button.You also said:"You seem to want to engage me in some sort of silly debate no matter what I post, and I'm just not going to let that occur."Silly debate based upon you posting. I don't think so, Darrell.As a matter of FACT, I did a search of your username here and found that according to Avsim, you made 11 posts in the last month, while I only replied to you directly in this thread. That is a very high Ratio, and I very much disagree that I want to engage you. Again, the FACTS suggest otherwise. Care to eleaborate on your little Theory, and prove I am looking to engage you "NO MATTER WHAT YOU POST". Here are the links where you posted that anyone can verify by searching on a username. And unless the forum software here burped, it seems to be an accurate picture. If I repsond to you, I will address you directly. If however you read into posts words that are not there, that is of no concern to me.You know, So people don't get the wrong Idea about the Facts and truth and all.1) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search2) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search3) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search4) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search5) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search6) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search7) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=search8) http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=searchAs usual, my Integrity is 100% in tact, and I will continue to tell the truth.Have A nice day Darrell.Best Regards,Joe

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>"There is a VERY good European flightsim site, where any>concerns you may have or disatisfaction with a product can be>discussed quite openly provided it does not degenerate to>name calling and personal insults. A reflection I guess of>a better cultural tolerance and acceptance of differing>opinions and expectations. ">And that includes namecalling re the companies involved.Also, blatant lies are not tollerated. Remember that moderators are often longtime community members who have contacts inside the industry and who WILL try to follow up your complaints if they can and do some research.After all, that site also runs an online shoppe (just like Avsim) to generate some income towards running it and it would not do to have your own name associated with untrustworthy salespeople...While we Europeans may have the ability to be more tollerant, that does not mean we're more likely to allow ourselves to be used for attempts to deface people, especially if those people have done nothing to deserve that.

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>My last post on this topic:>>As was stated previously, we do not limit discussions negative>or positive about commericial developers as long as the posts>follow certain rules: mainly, keeping them civilized.>>Unfortunately, and this is not a mere USA problem, there are>posters who cannot seem to stay within the boundaries that>have been set. Once those boundaries are crossed, we take>action.>>Freedom of speech does NOT mean freedom from responsibility. >Remember you cannot yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater when>there is no fire. This forum is the crowded theater.>>Just my 2 pence.>>I agree wholeheartedly and do not expect you to answer - just consider my tuppence worthI only have a small number of posts here as it was only quite recent that I felt the need to ask some advice in one of your excellent forums but have been quite enthralled for some considerable time just browsingAnyway - to my point - I agree that there have been more than one thread "go off the rails" and degenerate to a personal attack by one or more persons on one or more other persons and THAT is totally wrong morally, legally, whatever - BUT to then just remove (whether by physical deletion or "locking")the thread either in part or whole whilst still allowing one sides almost psychotic rant against one or more non existent posts to stand for everyone to see without the balance of knowing what instigated the outburst could lead some people to a conclusion of this site not being impartialI am NOT saying that you do not have rules and the right to run your site anyway that you see fit - of course that is your right and no-one should deny thatWhat I am suggesting for your consideration is a way that you can still maintain the level of decorum that you desire and still convey to the "community" at large that you are at least trying to maintain an objective level of impartialityIf someone posts an outrageously defamatory "flame" thread then by all means use the delete button as any sane person wouldBut - in the case where someone posts a negative comment about a product then it is my opinion that the thread should at least be left to run - granted that there have been instances where that has quickly degenerated into a "mudslinging" session and DOES need to be moderatedMy suggestion for your consideration is this - instead of just wholeheartedly deleting posts or threads that may have already been seen by some (unless of course you have an entire team of 24/7 monitors) and thereby producing the perception that you may be exhibiting bias in one form or another - why not just delete the offending material and replace it with a "notation" to the effect that the deleted portion was considered "outside the bounds of our rules etc" - If that in fact constituted the entire post of some of your radical ravers then so be it - at least that way the wider readership will fairly quickly realise that some people cannot be trusted with a comment on a forum such as this and the person concerned will either "clean up their act" if they have something constructive to contribute OR they will do everyone a favour and get sick of knocking their head against a wallThis obviously applies to all sides of whatever discussion is occuring and would go a long way towards removing a perception of bias, censorship, whatever that is starting to become evident in more than one forum - a well publicised one being where a moderator attempted to impose his/her religous ideals (or lack thereof) on an entire forum during a recent festive event celebrated by quite a large portion of the world Have a nice day

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Why not just create a site/forum where the only option is to check predefined boxs which discribes a users experience with a product. Perhaps a 1 ~ 5 grade system of the different issues. Then an over all rating can be made of the product.Mitch

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Wont kill you to get a little peeved periodically Kenneth.Stretching the envelope is what forces good government.

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"it occured to me that the "land of free speech" really is not, nor cannot be"Wrong! We in the US enjoy the most liberal liberties of speech and expression in the world.You can, for instance, express your opinion about anyone or anything and call the person names, brand him a bigot, a liar, a bum, etc, and as long as you express it as your opinion there are no legal actions that can be taken against you. (Except in privately owned and operated internet forums, :>) )IF you start stating, as fact, that a person has made false statements, has defrauded you or anyone, has committed a crime, etc, you'd better have proof or your open to liable actions. You can state anything, anywhere, about anyone, even the president, as long as it is your opinion, or is the truth. Except you can't say anything involving the intentional causing of death of the president.In Russia you may be able to flame your fellow comrades, but try flaming the government and see where you end up.In forums like this there have to be rules of conduct because not everyone is capable of self control. Not even me sometimes.So, Tom makes the rules, I follow them. Glenn

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