Still Trim issues with Sp1b

[kevinh 409]

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Did it work?!?

You missed out 'esc'# from the cheat sequence.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I think that's not a bad idea, actually. So many different hardware setups on a desktop simulator, it does make sense to me; that and I'm always a fan of giving the consumer options.

 

Isn't customization already provided?  Could you not effectively disable the FBW by setting your joystick null zone to 100% in the PMDG Setup menus?

[CaptKornDog 287]

Isn't customization already provided?  Could you not effectively disable the FBW by setting your joystick null zone to 100% in the PMDG Setup menus?

I don't know. If you try it, let the community know. I'm sure a few of the folks in this thread would be interested.

[pete_auau 1,165]

I don't know. If you try it, let the community know. I'm sure a few of the folks in this thread would be interested

What's wrong with you trying it out  and letting  the community know the outcome?

[777simmer 117]

Isn't customization already provided? Could you not effectively disable the FBW by setting your joystick null zone to 100% in the PMDG Setup menus?

I have tried from 1 to 10 (10=100% if I understand correctly) and it did not change much for me....maybe a little more delay between a trim input and its effect taking place in the sim.....

 

So on my system, last time I tried, 100% does not disable the FBW system.

I think actually that only 0% would do that, which could be why it is not available.

 

But I want to experiment more with the CDU dead zone esspecially in combination with the introduction of a Windows Game Controller dead zone!

Hopefully I can see some more effect of the CDU dead zone then.

 

So standby (everybody) for later today or tomorrow to give me you opinion and/or help on my results.

(as a reminder; the goal is to get rid of the trim inputs not being effective untill the control is in neutral....a problem only some are having it seems.)

 

thx

I haven't used the cheat mode to trim the airplane after SP1B update. The trim just works fine for me..

That is nice for you.

I think we are finally done with this thread.

But I really do not like it when people are trying to say we can close this thread now just because they do not have a problem.

 

I do have a problem (trim does not work unless control is in neutral) and I am still trying experimenting with dead zones to get it fixed. If you do not mind I would like this thread open untill then so I can ask others for help and/or post my results.

I am uploading videos where i flew with A/P and A/T on to 15000ft and speed 250knots. I then disconnect the A/p.In one video i change from 250 to 270 and second 270 to 290.I have both the PFD and FCTL page open.You can see as i am pushing up and down the elevator and trimming, the trim is being applied and not applied at once when in neutral.

 

1. Speed Trim from 270 to 290

 

http://youtu.be/QIghaOQYIVg

 

2. Speed Trim from 250 to 270

 

http://youtu.be/Xdbp623erRs

 

Trim is being applied while I am still pulling/pushing the yoke to maintain level flight.Hope these videos put rest to the argument that the trim is only applied once control is in neutral.

 

This also answers your post which mentions its not possible to manually trim the plane without using the cheat.

Your video from 250 to 270kt does not address our problem.

 

All it shows is that trimming IS possible.

 

It does NOT show that trimming is only possible UNLESS the yoke is released to neutral, which is the problem we are having.

 

We can not even see the position of your yoke......so how can we know whether or not you had the yoke go through neutral or not.

 

But I tell you what.....your STAB trim went from 6.25 to 5.75 right around the time you got below that 15.000 that you were trying to hold. And what do you do then?.......right, you would release the yokes down force......then go through neutral!!.......and then slightly pull up....right?......right!

 

Your videos would help inmensely if you could make one where you do NOT ever.....not even for a split second.......go through neutral.

In order to do that, do not worry about those 15000ft.

Just accelerate from 250kt to 300kt and holde fwd pressure on the yoke to prevent the aircraft froom climbing too much.

But allow a shallow climb of 100-300ft/min......this would guarantee constant fwd pressure on the yoke and never going through neutral.

while holding that constant fwd pressure, trim nose down....way down.

Wiithout changing the yokes deflection....with all that nose down trim added to it.....if the triminput takes effect, the aircraft would nose down.

 

Does it?

 

could you please show us a video of that?

I for one would be greatfull!

 

And also one in the opposite direction please, where you decelerate from 300kt to 250kt or so while holding constant back pressure but allowing a slight descned to prevent again the neutral position.

Does the nose go up sky high like a rocket while trimming?

 

 

looking at you other video right now (270 to 290kt) ....stby for more comments.

 

Yep same thing!

 

At the 41sec mark your elevators went through neutral......exactly at that moment your STAB trim changed from 5.75 to 5.50!

 

And later on, your trim changed from 5.50 to 5.25 right after your elevator went through neutral

 

 

That I can do as well.

I have even explained to someone else in this thread how I trim the PMDG777.....by allowing the yoke to go through neutral on purpose every now and then so that trim inputs can take effect!

What I can not do....or not at all times at least.....is have trim take effect even though I do not go though neutral.

 

But as said above....please stand by for my experiments with dead zone.

[pete_auau 1,165]

Than wouldn't you think  if no one has has the same issues  than its specific  to your installation or hardware issue? 

[777simmer 117]

Than wouldn't you think  if no one has has the same issues  than its specific  to your installation or hardware issue?

 

was that repy to me??

 

If so:

1) We are at least 3 in this thread who have the same issue with diffentent yokes/sticks.

 

2) just because people dont report the same problem here does not mean "no one" else is having the problem. There could be hundreds out there!

 

3) If you go back through this thread (and other ones) you will see that I have had to explain why an airplane needs a horizontal stabilizer, why we trim, and how I suggest they should trim (particulary the PMDG777).

I dont mind that at all....in fact I like it, otherwise I would not be here....but do you really think people without the basic understanding of aerodynamics and how to trim would even realize their PMDG777 is behaving incorrectly?

 

4) even IF it was just me and my controller.....can we still try to fix it?

I have mentioned at least 5 times in this thread alone that I am willing to accept that my controller causes the problem. Because many others claim to not have it. And I have said I will experiment more with dead zones and that I am going to need help from others here (compare dead band settings).

[PerWel 23]

I can trim down at the same time as I have the yoke pushed down. Always handfly up to 250 knots during takeoff. No problems at all. I even sometimes trims "ahead" without any problems, does not need to go to neutral for it to work. Pushing yoke and trim down at the same time, no problem. Same the other way on landings, pull to control descend and trim up at the same time.

 

Does not understand the problem at all. But pulling and trim down(forward) at the same time does not work, described in the manuals that there is a security thing so that the pilot can stop a

unwanted trim by moving the yoke in the opposite direction in case the button get stuck. And why do you want to move yoke in one direction and trim the other way!? Sounds crazy.

Like pushing on the brakes and throttle at the same time in a car.

 

/Per

[CaptKornDog 287]

What's wrong with you trying it out and letting the community know the outcome?

Because I'm away from my sim computer for a few days, Peter

 

I don't necessarily want to "disable" FBW, I'm still trying to test, troubleshoot, and master my own setup. I was simply agreeing with the gentleman above who suggested it may be a value-added option or method to try.

[pete_auau 1,165]

Why do users expect   their fsx installation to work  exactly like  the real aircraft,  cant  they just thank pmdg  for producing as close as possible  to the real thing or am I missing some thing here 

Because I'm away from my sim computer for a few days, Peter

I don't necessarily want to "disable" FBW, I'm still trying to test, troubleshoot, and master my own setup. I was simply agreeing with the gentleman above who suggested it may be a value-added option or method to try.

Ok no problems

[777simmer 117]

 Oh and Kevin - the real airplane actually does allow you to input trim opposite the direction of yoke deflection. We had this tried in the real airplane by someone we trust completely and he confirmed it. The limitation with it is that the stabilizer itself cannot move in this situation - the elevator however can and does. It just won't be offloaded/streamlined until after the yoke deflection is released. This is all modeled in SP1.

Sorry Ryan but your source is wrong :-(

 

Or at least as far as artificial feel is concerned!

 

And let us try and reduce this subject to artificial feel ok.

I mean the FBW system is doing al kinds of complicated things and streamlining elevator and STAB without us realizing it, but it the end the only thing that matters to the pilot is what he feels and how his inputs effect the aircraft or that feel.

The behind the scene stuff does not and should not have to concern him.

 

When you trim in the opposite direction of yoke pressure/back pressure....the artificial feel force on the yoke, on the real 777, is not removed!

So for all practical purposes, trimming in the opposite direction is not having any effect.

And if he lets go of the yoke the nose goes up or down to search for the in-trim speed.....which prooves that he was never in trim.

 

At least, not from a pilots standpoint which is.....no force applied means - I am in trim....force applied means - I am not in trim.

 

Maybe aerodonamically the STAB and elevators were doing all kinds of things and maybe the plane was even trimmed out....but this does not matter. All the pilot knows and feels is that he is presented with an out of trim situation, and that opposite trimming did nothing...and that he will thus have to apply trim in the correct direction.

 

I have not tested how SP1B reacts in this respect not do I really care to be honest.

I mean I will test it, just for the heck of it.....but who trims in the opposite direction??

Nobody!

So I do not mind much whether or not this part is simulated correctly or not.

It is just a detail.

 

What IS important is that you try oppsite trimming in the level D sim and see for yourself that it does not work (granted a level D sim is only a sim but I would expect that part to be correctly modelled in a level D)

 

 

If you ask me....this opposite trimming stuff all comes from the blib feature discussion.

When the FBW ref trim speed is within 5kt of actual speed, then blib trim will set them equal. No matter in which direction you hit the trim switches.

But that is the only one time an opposite trim input has that effect!

But pulling and trim down(forward) at the same time does not work, described in the manuals that there is a security thing so that the pilot can stop a

unwanted trim by moving the yoke in the opposite direction in case the button get stuck. And why do you want to move yoke in one direction and trim the other way!? Sounds crazy.

Like pushing on the brakes and throttle at the same time in a car.

 

/Per

exactly....see my post nbr 41 in this thread.

I can trim down at the same time as I have the yoke pushed down. Always handfly up to 250 knots during takeoff. No problems at all. I even sometimes trims "ahead" without any problems, does not need to go to neutral for it to work. Pushing yoke and trim down at the same time, no problem. Same the other way on landings, pull to control descend and trim up at the same time.

/Per

ok good.

 

can you post your CDU dead zone setting and do you use a dead zone at the driver level as well?

 

And, can you try the same in the opposite direction please?

So trim while decelerating....do not go through neutral!

[PerWel 23]

And, can you try the same in the opposite direction please?

So trim while decelerating....do not go through neutral!

 

Already done that! Works OK

 

My yoke is a Saitek Pro Flight Yoke System and Saitek rudders.

Config is in FSX standard way, not through FSUIPC.

 

Programmed the left thumb button to trim sending standard keys Num1 and Num7

 

-Per

[777simmer 117]

Why do users expect   their fsx installation to work  exactly like  the real aircraft,  cant  they just thank pmdg  for producing as close as possible  to the real thing or am I missing some thing here 

 

I do not expect a 100% perfect simulation of the 777 within FSX at all.

And I have siad oh so many times that the PMDG777 is unbelievable.....a great sim.

And I have said a few times that trimming is now very close to the real thing.

 

And I can accept PMDG (Ryan) statement, where he has said that this is pretty much a close as they can get it to the real thinng.

That is fine...that is honost!

 

But I am having a problem that others do not have and I do not see why I have to accept a problem that others are not having.

If everybody was having this problem and Ryan would have said.....yes we know but that is all we can do......than I would have accepted it and happily fly along with the FBW trim ref speed mode displayed....having great fun with the thing.

 

But that is not the case......PMDG and many users claim they can trim even though the controls never go through neutral.

They claim that under all circumstances they can trim......slowly taking out their yoke deflection.

 

I would like that to work on my end as well....that is all.

Already done that! Works OK

ok, thx....I will be trying that as well.

 

no CDU dead zone or joystick deadzone info?

[PerWel 23]

I do not expect a 100% perfect simulation of the 777 within FSX at all.

And I have siad oh so many times that the PMDG777 is unbelievable.....a great sim.

And I have said a few times that trimming is now very close to the real thing.

 

And I can accept PMDG (Ryan) statement, where he has said that this is pretty much a close as they can get it to the real thinng.

That is fine...that is honost!

 

But I am having a problem that others do not have and I do not see why I have to accept a problem that others are not having.

If everybody was having this problem and Ryan would have said.....yes we know but that is all we can do......than I would have accepted it and happily fly along with the FBW trim ref speed mode displayed....having great fun with the thing.

 

But that is not the case......PMDG and many users claim they can trim even though the controls never go through neutral.

They claim that under all circumstances they can trim......slowly taking out their yoke deflection.

 

I would like that to work on my end as well....that is all.

ok, thx....I will be trying that as well.

 

no CDU dead zone or joystick deadzone info?

 

Yoke deadzone is zero and I have not changed the default CDU deadzone from PMDG

Dont know the exact number.

-Per

[777simmer 117]

Yoke deadzone is zero and I have not changed the default CDU deadzone from PMDG

Dont know the exact number.

-Per

that's fine, thx for the info.

 

I have the same....no Windows game controller deadzone and FMC deadzone at default....which was the minimum.

 

I do use FSUIPC.

I could try linking my controller trim buttons to FSUIPC key select Num1 and Num7 but I dont think it will make a difference.

At the moment FSUIPC has the trim button inputs routed directly to FS for trim control (so not linked via key stroke).

Thx for that detail!