Saitek cessna yoke will serve u well ..yeah its all set thru fsuipc and everything works well ..with two other levers assigned for reverse and one lever for tiller..

Hi Rob,

 

I decided to try your extreme tests for the -200LR and -300ER and have come up with some interesting results. I think you are definitely on to something important. Thanks for sticking with it and making me re-think.

 

Anything for the cause, haha.

 

Thanks for joining our experiments. We can sure use someone with you knowledge of simulators!

I don't get the increased sensitivity you see at one end of the speed range. For me it's insensitive at both high and low speed. However the reduced sensitivitiy is in one elevator direction only, it is full in th eother direction. That might explain why you feel it differently as the reduced sensitivity switches in and out as you move the column.

 

That is very interesting and the third variant of how the system works on different systems.

 

I definately had extremely ineffective elevator controls in both directions (push and pull) in one situation, and extremely oversensitive elevator control, in both directions, in the other situation.

It's no wonder the -200LR feels so loose with a 100 knot trim speed difference because aerodynamically it is nearly in trim yet in one direction the elevator has only 33% authority.

 

Loose?.....things are getting more complex now......you mean that it feels weird to have to correct a pitch deviation in one direction with a lot of yoke deflection and in the other direction with normal yoke deflection?

I also think the way PMDG has reduced elevator authority when out of trim is causing seriously handling problems. Full authority must be available for a good elevator feel simulation. It's something you simply shouldn't mess about with in a flight sim.

 

Rather than reducing elevator authority to force the user to apply a large column input (and so feel a larger spring force) I think PMDG need to add apply larger offset in the FBW law that forces the nose down (or up) in proportion to the trim reference speed error. The amount of the out of trim pitch applied would have to be adjusted by trial and error and a limit on the error may have to be applied because you could easily run out of control authority with a large error. The end result would be the need to apply a larger pitch control input but without the undesirable reduced sensitivity. If for some reason this is not possible then please, PMDG, remove the elevator sensitivity changes. They are doing far more harm than good.

 

That is just the thing. PMDG explained a few times now that in order to simulate the FBW system they had no other option than to reduce elevator authority.

 

I am no programmer I have no idea.

Nor do I care if things work out ok that way.

 

But here is my biggest concern:

We have 5 users now participating in this experiment and got 4 different ways the FBW system behaves on the users system!

That is not good!

-I have unsensitive controls in one out of trim situation and over sensitive controls in the other out of trim situation.

- Henrik has insensitive controls in both out of trim situations.

- Rob and Alex, initially have the response I do, but then it changes.

- and you have unsensitive controls in one direction(push)/normal control in the other direction(pull) in one out of trim situation. And unsensitive control in one direction(pull)/normal control in the other direction(push) in the other situation.

 

I think we are getting closer to why some are saying the plane trims fine and others are saying no it does not!

Saitek cessna yoke will serve u well ..yeah its all set thru fsuipc and everything works well ..with two other levers assigned for reverse and one lever for tiller..

cool, thx for the info.

By the way guys, I can't test/experiment for the next few days.

 

But I have asked PMDG to give as some info on how the system should behave (sensitivity wise). 

 

Hopefully we will then know who's system is responding as it should and who's is not and then we can take it from there.

Loose?.....things are getting more complex now......you mean that it feels weird to have to correct a pitch deviation in one direction with a lot of yoke deflection and in the other direction with normal yoke deflection?

 

By loose I meant mushy and unresponsive. The sim was nearly in aerodynamic trim (though the ref speed was 100 knots different) but the controls are very insensitive so it's hard to control. That isn't how the 777 is supposed to be.

 

That is just the thing. PMDG explained a few times now that in order to simulate the FBW system they had no other option than to reduce elevator authority.

 

With all due respect to PMDG I just don't buy that. I can't think of any good reason in flight simulation to do it. But obviously I don't know how PMDG have modelled the C*U FBW. Messing around with control sensitivities is unnecessary and leads to worse control problems. My feeling is if you implement a C*U control law properly then there should be no reason to limit control authority to force greater column deflection and therefore force. That is the only reason it's being done IIRC. There must be better ways to do it than that. After all they don't do it in the NGX to make out of trim forces seem higher.

 

- and you have unsensitive controls in one direction(push)/normal control in the other direction(pull) in one out of trim situation. And unsensitive control in one direction(pull)/normal control in the other direction(push) in the other situation.

 

What I'm experiencing is pretty much how the system is decribed in the revised SP1b Introduction Manual. When I first read about this method I wasn't happy. It's not flight simulation. In a conventional aircraft if you deviate from a trimmed condition your controls don't become less effective, and certainly not in one direction only.

 

I think we are getting closer to why some are saying the plane trims fine and others are saying no it does not!

 

Well as I've said a few times on here, if I keep trim errors fairly small (50 kts or less) then it trims OK by feel. The -300 seems to trim better than the -200. I think thats due to the increased longitudinal stability in the -300 model. Until today I hadn't tried pushing the trim reference speed as far out as 100 kts. On one occasion today I lost control at 210 knots (with trim speed at 310). The aircraft pitched down slightly and started to lose altitude and I could not bring the nose up again with only limited elevator authority. It was like being stalled with very ineffective pitch control. You could argue that in reality no pilot would fly so far out of trim, so all is well. But I would say pushing it to the limit exposes a flaw in the model and that flaw seems to behave differently for different users.

With all due respect to PMDG I just don't buy that. I can't think of any good reason in flight simulation to do it. But obviously I don't know how PMDG have modelled the C*U FBW. Messing around with control sensitivities is unnecessary and leads to worse control problems. My feeling is if you implement a C*U control law properly then there should be no reason to limit control authority to force greater column deflection and therefore force. That is the only reason it's being done IIRC. There must be better ways to do it than that. After all they don't do it in the NGX to make out of trim forces seem higher.

 

"Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth."    -Buddha

 

Methinks KevinH walks the path of enlightenment and speaks with a wisdom-laden tongue.     I admonish the faithful to seek counsel in his knowledge and heed the iron in his words.     This guys gets what's really going on here.  

 

 

Signed,

 

Arnold Bruce

Interesting topic here. I'm having trouble hand flying this bird. I too seem to have the issue of no trim being applied until controls are neutral input wise. This means when you trim you can't feel when you're in trim until you release the column to neutral, meaning you're guessing effectively.

 

I have severe difficulty on approach and landing, it seems I can't get her in trim for landing even when I'm at a constant speed, I have to maintain back pressure on the yoke otherwise the nose drops, and trim isn't applied until a few seconds after neutralising the controls and therefore I've dipped out of the glideslope by miles.

 

None of it feels intuitive like it should.

 

The entire issue in a nutshell........................       Curious that so many users are now chiming in with the EXACT same problem over and over.     

 

Anyone from PMDG care to comment?    Bueller???   Bueller???    Bueller???

 

 

Signed,

 

Bruce Arnold

I am sure PMDG are monitoring the thread, what are we on, page 12? Soon to be 13? 

 

We would all like an official comment but my guess is they'll say something when they have identified and have started fixing the issue. :-)

 

I am worried however, at the level of experience the person behind the FBW is. I was told that the original RTM issues were only changed very late after the release. Fine tuning needs to be done

 

 

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread

 

 

Alex

If people want attention drawn to the matter, submit support tickets.

 

We all know that the team lurks here sometimes, but this is the community support forum, so you can't expect they're simply just going to pop in on a whim.

 

 

The entire issue in a nutshell........................       Curious that so many users are now chiming in with the EXACT same problem over and over.     
 
Anyone from PMDG care to comment?    Bueller???   Bueller???    Bueller???

 

You gonna submit a support ticket, or do you not want to for some reason?

 -

-

 

I take that to being  a no than

 -

 

Intelligent. Witty, even.

 

Fitting for forum trolls and those who prefer to trash things because they can't get something that's not supposed to work for them, to work...

 

...if you catch my drift.

Intelligent. Witty, even.

 

 

 

Fitting for forum trolls and those who prefer to trash things because they can't get something that's not supposed to work for them, to work...

 

 

 

...if you catch my drift.

 

 

Oh I catch your drift Kyle, you bet.     For the rest of you reading this, what our friend Kyle is inferring is that I'm a software pirate and I'm using an illegal copy of the PMDG 777; this is the reason I'm experiencing the manual trim issue.     You see, this is by design, a sort of copy protection scheme purposely built-in to the PMDG 777 to frustrate people who use pirated copies.      Thank you so much for clearing that up Kyle and I sincerely appreciate your candor.    

 

As for the rest of you here having the same issue with the FBW trim not working properly, may I humbly suggest you purchase a legal copy of the PMDG 777 and stop your ranting posts here, constantly whining about the sim not working for you.     The bottom line people, is that anyone who posts here about having ongoing technical issues like this are PIRATES, pure and simple.     We've been outed and all we can do is hang our heads in shame.    

 

Rob Robson, I am mostly disappointed in you, sir!     You're a real-world 777 pilot and you could not bring yourself to purchase a legal copy of the PMDG software???     You complained about the RTM FBW only days after it was released in September 2013, and obviously you literally managed to find a stolen version of the 777 software package overnight.     Just wow.    Really?    I hope you can live with yourself.     You probably steal peanuts and cans of Diet Coke from the forward galley when the F/As aren't looking too, don't you???    Just admit it.    I know your type all too well.   

 

Kyle, I sincerely, from the bottom of my heart apologize for being the criminal I am, and if it will help I'll be more than happy to turn state's witness against everyone else on here having the same problem (in exchange for leniency of course).     Mostly, I don't want any of this to affect our special friendship.     

 

If everyone will please excuse me now, I'm going to go jump off the nearest bridge (assuming the trolls let me pass long enough).   

 

Signed,

 

Arnold Bruce  (Jack Sparrow to my friends)

Oh I catch your drift Kyle, you bet.     For the rest of you reading this, what our friend Kyle is inferring is that I'm a software pirate and I'm using an illegal copy of the PMDG 777; this is the reason I'm experiencing the manual trim issue.     You see, this is by design, a sort of copy protection scheme purposely built-in to the PMDG 777 to frustrate people who use pirated copies.      Thank you so much for clearing that up Kyle and I sincerely appreciate your candor.    

 

As for the rest of you here having the same issue with the FBW trim not working properly, may I humbly suggest you purchase a legal copy of the PMDG 777 and stop your ranting posts here, constantly whining about the sim not working for you.     The bottom line people, is that if anyone who posts here about having ongoing technical issues like this are PIRATES, pure and simple.     We've been outed and all we can do is hang our heads in shame.    

 

Rob Robson, I am mostly disappointed in you, sir!     You're a real-world 777 pilot and you could not bring yourself to purchase a legal copy of the PMDG software???     You complained about the RTM FBW only days after it was released in September 2013, and obviously you literally managed to find a stolen version of the 777 software package overnight.     Just wow.    Really?    I hope you can live with yourself.     You probably steal peanuts and cans of Diet Coke from the forward galley when the F/As aren't looking too, don't you???    Just admit it.    I know your type all too well.   

 

Kyle, I sincerely, from the bottom of my heart apologize for being the criminal I am, and if it will help I'll be more than happy to turn state's witness against everyone else on here having the same problem (in exchange for leniency of course).     Mostly, I don't want any of this to effect our special friendship.     

 

If everyone will please excuse me know, I'm going to go jump off the nearest bridge (assuming the trolls let me pass long enough).   

 

Arnold, please don't reduce this product thread to immaturity.

 

I am sure we're close to nailing this and inputs like yours will just get the topic locked and all of every-bodies time and effort will go to waste.

 

If you have a problem with Kyle, approach him privately, he is usually very responsive in that domain and it lets the rest of us try and solve this mystery.

 

Cheers

Arnold, please don't reduce this product thread to immaturity.

 

 

 

I am sure we're close to nailing this and inputs like yours will just get the topic locked and all of every-bodies time and effort will go to waste.

 

 

 

If you have a problem with Kyle, approach him privately, he is usually very responsive in that domain and it lets the rest of us try and solve this mystery.

 

 

 

 

Kyle told me the reason (in so many words) that the reason I personally am having problems with manual trim is because I'm using a stolen copy of the software.     Did you not catch that?     I thought I was actually pretty diplomatic about it, albeit with a twist of humor.     If we subscribe to the transitive theory in logic and establish that I'm using a pirated copy of the 777, then it follows that you are too.      That doesn't bug you?

 

Signed,

 

Arnold Bruce

Kyle told me the reason (in so many words) that the reason I personally am having problems with manual trim is because I'm using a stolen copy of the software.     Did you not catch that?     I thought I was actually pretty diplomatic about it, albeit with a twist of humor.     If we subscribe to the transitive theory in logic and establish that I'm using a pirated copy of the 777, then you are too.      That doesn't bug you?

 

Signed,

 

Arnold Bruce

 

I must have missed that part where Kyle accused us of having a pirated copy, that might be my mistake but I am confident I would have picked it up.

 

Alex