Our actions and groups we belong to most certainly do define and label us something, that's simply the way it is. I don't expect a neo ###### (those national socialist guys) to be a good, law abiding citizen. Neither do I expect an ISIS fighter to be one.

The labels are misleading and yet again I have to tell you that individuals are not uniform or homogeneous. Not every person who joined the National Socialist Party in the 1930s felt the same way, thought the same way, and were willing to go to the same lengths. There are abstract ideals but anybody who knows anything about people knows that what motivates one person to join is different from another. The bigger ISIS gets, the more it becomes a popular front and attracts a wider body of young impressionable muslims the less likely the bulk of their numbers are going to be anything other than young stupid guys who want to point an AK at a bad guy in the muslim homeland. Extremism isn't a mainstream thing, so as the movement gets more mainstream the body of the group becomes diluted with the (relative) moderates and the wishful thinkers and the ones who'll balk at going to some lengths. Many many people are joining up now just because they love the idea of the Muslim nation being created which ignores the irrelevant and arbitrary borders created by the western powers that have sown so much of the sectarian violence of the last century. That does not equal a uniform desire to visit a war upon the lands of the West, not from the people who join almost exclusively to create the vaunted muslim nation. Right now thats where they're getting most of their new membership from. That draw is different from the one of targeting the West in a traditional al Qaeda attack. You don't just turn around and go from being an organized paramilitary group fighting conventionally in the Middle East to an elusive underground terrorist one and bring everyone along for the ride.

 

If labels should be applied uniformly based on the purest and worst case scenario then the Nuremberg hearings really went easy on all those Nazzzis that they didn't incarcerate. We have to stand back and realize that the labels we apply, and even the labels that the group self applies isn't necessarily accurate or even relevant to the whole truth. As the movement grows in size and even succeeds in some areas it will have to respond to what its own members feel. If they manage to actually find a way to secure a pretty decent chunk of land and defend it you'll suddenly find some smart person talking about trying to not provoke the west or something. Governance does weird things to people's whacky resolve. Its foolish to just say "they're brainwashed zealots, they will do this no matter what" because honestly thats not true. You can take a lot of the wind out of the sails of these groups just by killing the leaders, and thats what the West has done and with success against many groups apparently (ignoring the obvious issues of sowing more future animosity and hate thanks to the casualties).

 

I don't want anyone to think I'm defending any part of ISIS, but I'm not prepared to just generalize things. There's something more than just a pure terrorist group forming out there. There's a lot of pent up energy being poured into it and a lot of that is based on things other than just extremists trying to start wars in the West. There is a sleeping giant in the muslim culture thats been held back by Western involvement in the region for a very long time and a powerful movement can build with youth behind the idea of regaining that sense of power and self determination. Besides, your own analysis is that there are people being drawn to it because of disenfranchisement over a lack of opportunities. People like that aren't just going to overnight turn into a guy on the level of Mohammad Atta or even ever become him.

Not 100% but many are. While some people fighting for ISIS might be simply looking for an adventure, wealth or acceptance, many are simply driven there by religious brainwashing. People who genuinely believe there's a God who will award them in heaven if they die as martyrs can do do pretty much anything, they aren't acting rationally. 

 

Yes, among conservative Sunni Muslims. However everyone else is an enemy to ISIS.

 

Our actions and groups we belong to most certainly do define and label us something, that's simply the way it is. I don't expect a neo ###### (those national socialist guys) to be a good, law abiding citizen. Neither do I expect an ISIS fighter to be one.

 

ISIS is still very busy advancing their goals in the Middle East. Just because nothing has happened in the west yet doesn't mean we aren't going to be in deep trouble when the fighting there starts to decelerate. Personally I have no doubt ISIS will try its best to commit massive terrorist attacks against the west sooner or later, it's only matter of time. 

 

 

 

 

 

For what it's worth I agree with your take on the situation based on what I'm seeing boots on the ground in my area/city. The other guy seems a bit dismissive of the facts and giving reason where there is no reasoning.

I'm not dismissive, I'm just trying to take a balanced view and not letting crazy westerner fear syndrome colour my conclusions.

 

FScamp apparently insists that we have to listen to the labels more than the actual psychology of human behavior but labels are so misleading and often the labels we apply to things and even the labels others self apply aren't relevant. China calls itself democratic in some mode, should I take that at face value? But we should respect the labels shouldn't we?

 

This is not to underestimate the threats but I'm not about to just shrug and make some sweeping generalization because its convenient and indulges fear. The idea of ISIS creating the mythic Islamic state, brilliantly doing so by ignoring the arbitrary borders created by Western powers which have been directly responsible for so much sectarian violence, is a powerful symbol and it will draw many many people to it. That is something altogether different from the broader goal that would see violence visited upon Western shores.

 

I have no doubt that the puritanical elite of the organization are every bit as dangerous as we think they are, but thats very different from thinking the grunts that drawn in by a massive symbolic fight in the muslim homeland are in any way identical in their resolve. We will see how it hashes out over time of course, but no organization in history has on this scale had the kind of homogeneous belief and resolve that we're seeing assumed in this thread. Thats not how people work on large scales. Any part of this organization that will be focused on directly attacking the West at home will be like any other terrorist organization: small, carefully selected and groomed, highly secretive (meaning we won't read their names in newspapers as often), and nothing like the populist paramilitary part of the organization.

 

If having a balanced and guarded but still vigilant perspective is dismissive then I'm a very very dismissive person.

I'm not dismissive, I'm just trying to take a balanced view and not letting crazy westerner fear syndrome colour my conclusions.

I worked in the Intelligence Community for over 30 years and well aware of the terrorist threat from Islamic radicals here in the United States and around the world. We had many like you who talked many into being complacent and not to be fear-mongering as that is not politically correct and then 9/11 happened. They said, citizens do not need to know about these terrorist threats as it will only make them want to send us to war. Of course no one likes to go to war but that seems to be the solution when Islamic radicals are cutting the heads off of American citizens, using car bombs near Embassy's, attacking US Embassy's and killing the staff and Ambassador, attempting to blow up airliners or hi-jack them, using the Koran to justify the killings of their own children and wives who do not comply with their religious beliefs (which is occurring here in the US all of the time and it was the official law and policy used by the Taliban in Afghanistan). This to name just a few acts of terrorism. Human rights. Everyone should have them and no one should take them away from you because of a book such as the Koran, the Bible, or radical terrorists. Will it all go away if we act like it isn't happening? If we don't go to where they are and defeat them? A terrorist act here, a terrorist act there and when will it end? Terrorists are very patient and they do their targeting carefully and with precision using a multitude of Intelligence Sources and Resources. Remember September 2004 (what is it with the month of September with these terrorists?), at a Russian school where Chechen terrorists took over a school and held over 1100 students and faculty as hostages? No one expected the terrorists would do something like that to our children (many were babies). But they did and they could do it again right here in the United States or any country. Should we sit around and wait for that to happen if we already know they are here and recruiting?

 

As the OP stated, there is now proof that Islamic terrorists are recruiting here in the United States (and I'm positive in other countries like the United Kingdom). Let's act like they aren't recruiting and the recruits are going over to Syria, Libya and Iraq on vacation. No. They are here and they are recruiting. They have been here for longer than you and I have been here on Planet Earth. You indicate above that the recruits are the ignorant. I disagree. I remember sometime after 9/11 when a Palestinian female blew herself up and killed a lot of people in Israel. She was in her early 20's and a law student who was nearing qualification to be a lawyer in a few weeks. How sad. As I recall, there was another one who had completed medical school and became a doctor before becoming a suicide bomber. I also know the terrorist leaders are not as ignorant as others would want us to believe. They use the best technology available, including satellites, computers, Smartphones, and, of course, missile technology. They have unlimited funds. Some are actually college professors and conducting assessment and recruitment operations right here in the United States (and I'm sure in other countries too).

 

We can be dismissive, guarded and vigilant for a future terrorist attack that will definitely occur again here in the United States. But why wait for the inevitable? We need to end this madness now and the public needs to be educated about this threat!!

 

Not every person who joined the National Socialist Party in the 1930s felt the same way, thought the same way, and were willing to go to the same lengths

Uh, why did they join the Socialist Party then?

 

Respectfully,

 

 

We had many like you who talked many into being complacent and not to be fear-mongering as that is not politically correct and then 9/11 happened.

 

 

Bra-vo Jim!  Exactly what it sounds like to me...

 

Excellent post btw!

 

-Rob

 Remember September 2004 (what is it with the month of September with these terrorists?), at a Russian school where Chechen terrorists took over a school and held over 1100 students and faculty as hostages? No one expected the terrorists would do something like that to our children (many were babies). But they did and they could do it again right here in the United States or any country. Should we sit around and wait for that to happen if we already know they are here and recruiting?

I remember this very well, it was an extremely sad event when hundreds were killed in that school and held hostage in fear being forced to watch these muslims rigging up the school with bombs and explosives, just simply terrible event. Also to make it even more disgusting this subhuman that bombed this school was asked 10 years later if he regretted it, and he said "“I don’t feel guilty that women and children died,” after recieving questions from parents of the victims. This is simply disgusting and I strongly support a death sentence for him.

 

Also there has been apartment bombings, moscow metro bombings, Russian aircraft bombings, bus bombings, train station bombings, the list goes on and on. The muslim threat is very alive in Russia as it is in the USA and recently the ISIS have threatened Russia as well as the rest of the world (UK, EU, USA) with more attacks in the coming months. Obviously because of all this loss of life from international events I strongly condemn these sort of extreme practices. And even despite I was learned to be tolerant to religion as a result of our past I'm now beginning to become very anti-religious for the reasons above.

 

About 9/11 there was actually a prelude that almost happened... An Air France plane in Algeria got hijacked and demanded to flown to Paris, they fortunately landed somewhere else and were refused being loaded full fuel to continue their trip and the hijackers finally shot by French GIGN forces. But the point I'm making about this incident is the fact these terrorists were planning to fly this aircraft right on the Eiffel tower.

 

ISIS and extreme muslim militans must be stopped. Period. I will not have any tolerance or patience towards these groups.

 

I hope my rant doesn't offend anyone.

 

P.S, According to some muslim friends they say in real islam you do not kill, whilst it may be true not many of them actually follow their ideology and use their Quran as an excuse for their actions like previous posters have mentioned in this thread.

Thanks Rob. Hard to write and keep thoughts together with all the football games going on! But somehow I did it!

 

Best regards,

ISIS and extreme muslim militans must be stopped. Period. I will not have any tolerance or patience towards these groups.

 

I hope my rant doesn't offend anyone.

As long as you do not include ALL Muslim's or members of the Islamic faiths as there are many who are peaceful and great neighbors and disgusted with those who have chosen to become radical.

 

Best regards,