RNAV Approach or RNP Approach how to read Chart?

[skelsey 765]

 

 

so back to my Original question Simon.
how does the words "GNSS" on the chart suggests that I have to have the Suitable Monitoring and Alerting system that will qualify 
for the RNP Procession approach when GNSS is a navigation system and has nothing to do with the Monitoring ob board.

 

In short, because that's how ICAO have said the charts shall be titled. It is confusing, but it is what has been decided.

 

To fly an RNAV (GNSS) approach you need a note in the front of your FCOM (or in your GPS owners' handbook) stating that the aircraft/equipment is approved for RNP APCH operations.

 

To fly an RNP (AR) approach, you need special training and authorisation from the regulator.

[Akila 39]

OK, I think I am starting to understand it better now.

what to thank you all and  especially thanks to Kyle , Simon and Vernon that were patient

and explained it over and over going into details.

[Driver170 42]

RNP approaches is basically 2 different things in the ICAO world -

 

If you have RNAV (GNSS) in the title header then you can fly this only if in your company manual says RNP APCH approved, then you can fly RNP RNAV (GNSS) approaches. With special training etc

 

RNP AR APCH this requires aditional aeroplane certification and pilot training. They may have lower RNP values than the standard RNP APCH value of 0.3, limitations of use should be published in your aircraft manual and training manual.

[virtualstuff 759]

In short, because that's how ICAO have said the charts shall be titled. It is confusing, but it is what has been decided.

 

To fly an RNAV (GNSS) approach you need a note in the front of your FCOM (or in your GPS owners' handbook) stating that the aircraft/equipment is approved for RNP APCH operations.

 

To fly an RNP (AR) approach, you need special training and authorisation from the regulator.

 

As they say less is more

[kevinh 409]

Fascinating discussion. I learned a lot (or at least I think I did). Maybe Kyle and Simon should get together and compile an RNAV approach beginners guide, explaining the different types of approach and what it actually means in practice for sim users (if anything).

[Michael Moe 495]

Great stuff.

One thing that troubles me.

Kyle mentioned missed approach point is normally on noneprecision charts which makes sense so why is there almost always mapt on ILS charts in Europe? It seems strange as you would be sometimes passed the point on a ILS

 

Lnav is treated as noneprecision and MDA

LNAV/VNAV is treated as Ils Cat1 right DA?

IAN can be used on both right?

 

Michael Moe

[Driver170 42]

Fascinating discussion. I learned a lot (or at least I think I did). Maybe Kyle and Simon should get together and compile an RNAV approach beginners guide, explaining the different types of approach and what it actually means in practice for sim users (if anything).

 

Its all in the ICAO DOC 8168 VOL I & II also - PBN in ICAO DOC 9613 VOL I & II

Fascinating discussion. I learned a lot (or at least I think I did). Maybe Kyle and Simon should get together and compile an RNAV approach beginners guide, explaining the different types of approach and what it actually means in practice for sim users (if anything).

 

This is the run down of it

 

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1340&pageid=13338

[voske 36]

Sure, the information is in those documents, but they're not that easy to comprehend. I learned more by reading this thread than by reading those documents

[kevinh 409]

Its all in the ICAO DOC 8168 VOL I & II also - PBN in ICAO DOC 9613 VOL I & II

 

This is the run down of it

 

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1340&pageid=13338

 

 

Sure, the information is in those documents, but they're not that easy to comprehend. I learned more by reading this thread than by reading those documents

Exactly my point. It just defines what the terms mean, and it doesn't cover the differences to the FAA apart from mention WAAS. You need other information to interpret the meaning, and apply it to flightsim.

 

Obviously I was only half serious about a guide being written. It would be nice to have, but in lieu of that this thread contains the basics, just not in a coherent order. However the application of all this to flightsim, if any, remains open to discussion.

[skelsey 765]

I could certainly look at compiling something if it's felt it would be useful. My hands are a bit full with work this week but I should have some more time once the election is out of the way!

 

On the subject of how relevant it is to Flight Sim -- like most things in this field it depends really on how closely each individual wants to replicate reality. Every PMDG 737NGX is, for all intents and purposes, capable of carrying out RNP AR approaches and there's no virtual CAA to issue you aircrew approval etc (or come after you if you don't have it!) so the regulatory stuff is for the most part background information unless you follow a particular airline's SOPs.

 

Having said that, understanding what equipment you need to carry out a particular approach and the technical and legal limitations that apply is part and parcel of enhancing one's knowledge and airmanship -- as is being able to interpret the charts correctly and understand how chart presentations may differ between jurisdictions. So there is certainly plenty of interesting information in there.

[Driver170 42]

Yeh its nice to have some sort of guide, but reality is, the only way your truly going learn all of it is reading the official docs!

[Driver170 42]

Here is a guide from ICAO pure and simple

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjtmuokvj5eq2u5/module3_enabling_pbn.pdf?dl=0

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Kyle mentioned missed approach point is normally on noneprecision charts which makes sense so why is there almost always mapt on ILS charts in Europe? It seems strange as you would be sometimes passed the point on a ILS

 

Can you give me an example? Perhaps you're confusing the ILS with the LOC information (which are usually provided on the same chart).

 

 

 

Lnav is treated as noneprecision and MDA

 

Correct.

 

 

 

LNAV/VNAV is treated as Ils Cat1 right DA?

 

Not at all. LPV, yes; LNAV/VNAV, no. In fact, in some cases, your LNAV/VNAV mins may be higher because of a quirk in how different approaches are certified.

 

 

 

IAN can be used on both right?

 

To my knowledge, yes, but you still have to abide by the DA/MDA listed for the type of approach. If you're simulating having WAAS/LAAS (GBAS/GRAS), then you'd use LPV. If you're simulating not having WAAS/LAAS, then LNAV/VNAV.

[kevinh 409]

Yeh its nice to have some sort of guide, but reality is, the only way your truly going learn all of it is reading the official docs!

If that was the case, tutorial flights would not be necessary. People could just study the official manuals and try and figure it all out for themselves. Pilot's need and get training too, they aren't just thrown the manuals and expected to learn everything from scratch. Also simmers aren't necessarily interested in learning all of it. They may just want to learn enough to interpret the charts and use it in practice.

 

Think about the number of times you've started threads in the forum asking how this or that is done having studied the official documents and not got it all.

[Driver170 42]

I have asked questions on a particular subject that i was studying (FCTM) so i posted a question on my confusion! Didn't once suggest a guide.

 

Kevin, i hope you find my guide i got from PPRUNE that i have attached above from my dropbox usefull.