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rickalty

NWA A319 accidentaly lands at KRCA instead of KRAP

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I couldn't help but laugh. Even with the most sohpisticated gadets in the cockpit pilots still don't make there landing fields hehe.

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I feel bad for the pilots, work so hard to get where their at and now they make a mistake that potentially cost them their careers. :-(Andrew

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>I feel bad for the pilots, work so hard to get where their at>and now they make a mistake that potentially cost them their>careers. :-(>AndrewNo sense in feeling bad for them. Stupidity is natures way of getting rid of stupid people. What if they had flow their a/c into a hill short of the runway? Would we still feel sorry for them?

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Reminds me of the Continental Airlines a couple of years back that landed at a closed airfield.

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This whole thing looks strange when the following are considered. Granted, I'm no pilot and I'm basing my observations strictly upon FS9 information.1) Ellsworth ILS frequency 110.3 for runway 31 [309 degrees] Rapid City ILS 109.3 for runway 32 [321 degrees]2) Ellsworth has single runway of 13,486 feet Rapid City has a main runway of 8,697 feet plus a cross wind runwayWhile there are "only" 12 degrees approximately, between these main runways, that translates into quite a spread the further out the plane is. How in the world could they have been lined up on the wrong approach? It would take a conspiracy between crew and ATC, I should think, even if the crew had missed dialing the ILS freq by the one digit.In spite of their proximity to each other, wouldn't these two airports appear quite differently on GPS display screen due to their quite different layout?Can we presume to rule out a mechanical issue since an alternate crew was eventually able to depart for the correct destination?Finally, it seems that although the crew failed to get into KRAP on their first attempt, they may well be deep in it now!!

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Just another example of "Northworst Airlines". I'm thankful I don't live in a city like MSP or Detroit where I'd have to fly with them. They completely screwed up the only trip I've taken to Europe, and I still haven't forgiven them for that. Then there was that absurd "editorial" that their CEO wrote in their in-flight mag stating that general aviation was getting a free financial ride at their expense. What a crock. Thankfully, AOPA's Phil Boyer immediately called BS on that little piece of National Enquirer-style writing.

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I take it this wasn't an ILS landing ?EDIT: Ahh, unless the wrong ILS frequency had been selected. Mind you, if that was the case, then it equates with very sloppy preflight planning. I mean, surely all pilots are aware of the ILS, tower, ground....blah blah blah.....frequencies before they even board the plane ?Chris Low.

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These are all great examples of why we should not feel sorry for these guys. Sure they worked hard to get where they were, but apparently not hard enough. Luckily this was a mistake that everyone walked away from.

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One of those look-in-the-mirror events. Flying has a way of humbling you if you get comfortable. Everyone is asking "How could a crew and a highly automated jet under care of ATC (FAA/USAF) do this...?"ATC out in that area as far as approach is concerned is run by the USAF-though I haven't been through there in ages-though I bet the local controllers at KRAP were looking for them unless they were busy with other traffic....there is that void when turned over from approach to tower.As far as "being lined up on final" like the wonderful MSFS controllers do -- normally on a "small" field like KRAP they'll turn you loose to fly the "visual" like anybody else unless there is a company rule/reg, traffic requiring the gymnastics for the approach. Why they didn't at least have monitored the approach up in their NAV-Displays is not healthy to ones career. They may have even been just cleared to the airport, plugged it into the FMS and set the chain in motion. "Look, a big airport...."One of those head-up-and-locked errors. The FO or Captain sees a field, calls the field and slips into that "comfort-zone" of programmed responses. No excuse for it but, as they showed, it does happen. It is like pulling into your garage-you've done it 1000 times but then one day your a tad off because you weren't paying attention and scraaaape. And sometimes the automation of the new aircraft add to that feeling of comfort-pilots are much better fliers than system monitors.No matter how much human-factoring in put into SMAC and SOP the crew will find unique and interesting ways to screw it up. CRM is an art, not a science. It isn't the airline but the circumstances the crew finds themselves in mentally at that given moment. Northwest nor 99% of their employees did not want that plane to land at the AFB(ok, maybe the two guys next on the furlough recall list....) , the crew didn't want the plane to land at that AFB and in their mind they weren't.There will be a few investigations on what went on. The tapes will be pulled, interviews and questions asked. Crew will be delt-with and lessons learned. Till then most pilot will shrug their shoulders and silently thank God it wasn't them.It is an unusual event but not unique. Frontier(the Original), United and a host of others have made un-scheduled arrivals in the long history of jets.Tim757 (looking at the garage a tad different when I go home)

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"Till then most pilot will shrug their shoulders and silently thank God it wasn't them."Roger that!GregP.S. And there's a reason I don't keep alot of chunk in my garage... just my truck and a few (small) odds n' ends. :-)

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Screwed by the military again:-lol

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It's not surprising that many approach plates from around the world warn you not mistake something else for the airport. "Do not mistake Le Bourget for Charles de Gaulle" (from LFPG approach plate), "Motorway running almost parallel with RWY 10/28, 0.6 NM to South of RWY" (from EIDW approach plate), "During winter season test facility for motorcars on icetrack 3

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You're not mistaken. www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/books/WBAbook/Chap2.ps+northwest+wrong+airport+brussels&hl=enBrussels ATC alleged that Shannon ATC entered an incorrect code in the aircraft's ARC flight-plan data, redesignating the aircraft's destination to Brussels. The Irish Aviaton Authority denied thissaying they passed along the Frankfurt destination to London ATCC, the last center before Brussels.However it happened, London ATCC cleared the plane, which was travelling at FL 370, to descend to FL 240 and to contact Brussels. The crew began the descent, and contacted Brussels- but addressing the controller as "Frankfurt," announcing landing intentions. Brussels did not point out the addressing error, which CONTINUED ON SUBSEQUENT TRNSMISSIONS!The following is taken directly from the report at the above link:"Brussels approach instructed the crew to descend in-bound via Bruno, a VOR navigation beacon on one of the standard approaches to Brussels Airport. The crew had to ask ATC for the VOR's frequency. The aircraft was subsequently cleared for an instrument-landing system (ILS) approach to Brussels's runway 25L, which is the same runway orientation as at Frankfurt, but with different ILS frequencies.At some point the crew finally realised they were landing at the wrong airport and opted to continue the landing for safety reasons, says Northwest. The airline has said that, whatever errors ATC may have made, if any, the crew must "share responsibility" for what happened."It's hard to imagine plausible answers to any questions that might be posed.Alex M.

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The astonishing thing about that one is that the in-flight map in the cabin was apparently showing them on their way to Brussels for some time before the landing, so all the pax knew they were going to the wrong airport, but requests to the cabin crew as to "why?" were brushed off, and none of the cabin staff asked the flight deck crew why they'd been diverted to Brussels, assuming that the pilots would give them 'the word' when they had time.Richard

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These guy's are toast. Not only landing at an Air Force base, the runway they landed on, was closed!There were contractors working on it at the time, no one hurt, they saw the a/c coming and ran.Makes me wonder too! How? (-:

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Holy KRAAAAAA........, er, COW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-eek Alex M.

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everybody makes mistakes, why the harsh comments directed at the pilots? Sure it seems like a big mistake, but weird things happen, if they lose their jobs I think thats a little too overboard

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There's no margin for error in real flying, let alone an airline that is publicly embarrassed and may need to be seen to take some action.I think the issue is more one that the FAA will pull the licenses, so these people will not be able to fly again. Landing at an AFB without a genuine emergency is very tough stuff, especially since 9/11.Bruce.

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"Sure it seems like a big mistake, but weird things happen, if they lose their jobs I think thats a little too overboard"I don't. The runway was closed for maintainence, with people working on it. What if there'd been a trench across it and the plane had dropped its wheels into the trench, crashed and burned ?The answer to this sort of boo-boo is procedure, procedure, procedure. Had the pilots carried out their landing procedures strictly by the book, 'the book' would have saved their licenses.Richard

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Richard--tad too simple...Well, what "landing procedure" are you refering too? The one that says "When runway environment is in sight continue visually and land?"The crew may very well have ID any nav-aids then went visual...from a human factors standpoint they very well have done things by "the book." I'll wait for the CVR to see what they were thinking. They may have switched their NAV display off of "MAP" to "ILS" or "EHSI"-I am not sure of the poodle requirements as far as cockpit display set-ups are concerned.I looked in the SMAC and SOPA and didn't actually "see" one that said "Identify if the airport is proper airfield". I have flown into the same airport from many different directions and it may be the same airport but look totally different, even the same runway under different conditions will appear different. And at time, unlike the "Wonderful World of MSFS" it is very hard to even spot the airport when it is surrounded by "clutter" that blends it in.At that point I am using my judgement that that is the correct airport. That judgement may include input(sometimes conflicting input) from crew, ATC, on-board info etc. But once I go "eyes-out" there is very little reference to the RADIO-NAV side of the approach. At that point I am concerned about airspeed, attitude, traffic, TCAS, runway conditions, making the midfield turn-off, VASI/PAPPI path, ATC. Ever notice in a huds-up display there isn't much displayed that is NAV related that shows the source of the signal or the airport you are aimed at? Do I want, on short finally when I am trying to heard a bunch a cats, the FO to chime "Hmmmm, is this the right airport?" on each and every approach? And the crew in question may have been following the correct procedure-they had the runway enviroment in site, at the "precieved" correct visual location and landed visually. I'd like to hear the ATC transcripts and see if ATC said something like "The airport is at your 12 o'clock, cleared for the visual...". And guess what caught the crews eyes? All four eyeballs? As far as the runway being closed for painting I have to wait till I see what the investigation says, but somehow in the back of my mind I wonder if the runway had the big "X" on it that would have REALLY cued the crew that something was "amiss" in their plan. Spotting a maintenance crew/vehicle is actually a lot tougher than it sounds-ask any line-pilot who has "plowed into" a vehicle doing a runway incursion drill in the simulator during training or a PC. Of course if that big ol' "X" was there on the runway the crew is "cooked".Actually we get "set-up" a lot of times in the sims to combat complaciancy and over-reliance on the automation. The crafty instructors will create a session where judgemnt has to over-rule the input.I suggest that you read this month's editorial in "Professional Pilot" magazine about the difference between "Button Pushers" and pilots.Procedures will help any operation up to a point-and only to that point. The rest is judgement and the excercise of authority. Be it in the flight deck, control room of a nuclear plant or operating theater.That's why there are Captains, pilots and "button pushers"....Tim757

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God!It makes one think if those pilots where paying attention to what they were doing, and whether they had done any good preparation before landing i.e. LOOKING AT THE AIRPORT CHART! :-lol. - that alone would give you the location as well as the number of runways etc.Maybe they inputted the wrong airport code into the FMC, who knows....."Thank you for flying with Northwest Airlines, we hope you don't have too much trouble getting to the correct airport, like we did" lolhttp://www.onlinesimulationsolutions.com/sigs/wdosssig.jpg

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>Maybe they inputted the wrong airport code into the FMC, who>knows..Yes, maybe one of them didn't want to put KRAP into the MCDU scratchpad. ;-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

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Incidentally, I downloaded the approach plates for KRAP... they all show Ellsworth AFB right on the approach chart - you virtually overfly Ellsworth if coming in to KRAP on Rwy 14. You'd think at some point in the flight, one of the pilots would have looked at the plate and said "Hmm, couple of miles out we're going to almost overfly a USAF runway pointed in the same direction. Better look out for that, hadn't we?"http://members.aol.com/rickalty/KRAP.pdfRichard

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