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JRS182

Saitek!

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Hello,

 

I'm thinking of taking my sim to the next level. After using a Logitech 3D pro joystick for the past year it's time to step it up and get a proper yoke/throttle/rudder pedals.

 

From research it seems the saitek pro flight package is the most reasonable priced and fairly good quality.

 

I'm using p3d v3 on Windows 10. I see that none of the sites list these devices as Windows 10 compatible. Can anyone confirm these devices work okay on Windows 10?

 

Regards

Joe

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At least a number of users I am aware of, including myself, have some issues with some Saitek products under Windows 10 and to date I am not aware of any Windows 10 drivers. The drivers Windows 10 installed for my Saitek Pro Flight Cessna Yoke and Pro Flight Cessna Pedals are dated I believe as March 2011. I for one am able to work around the issues but do not have time this morning to write a message to detail it but here is the short story. It consists of changing settings in Windows to disable Advanced Power Management for the Saitek devices. Even then I must NOT unplug either Saitek device until after I have booted my system down to cold and dark (NOT just to Sleep), and I must NOT plug either Saitek device into any USB port until after I have fully booted my system up.  Failure to follow this sequence exactly results in my Microsoft mouse locking up.  This happens to me on my new fresh Windows 10 system and also happened on a completely different system I at one time migrated from Windows 7  to Windows 10.

 

Another issue is product availability.  Are you able to locate a source to order from that has the Saitek products in which you are interested in stock?  Most if not all suppliers have been out of stock for several months. Why is anyone's guess.

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Can't say Win10, but it's a joystick and presuming Win10 supports joysticks you should get basic functionality. But my advice is don't, the basic Saitek yoke is junk.

 

I have now seen enough evidence to suggest that the Cessna yoke may work better, so you might want to go for that one. It certainly has a different aileron mechanism and reportedly does not have the same built-in null zones in both axes. It still has the mechanical detentes, though.

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At least a number of users I am aware of, including myself, have some issues with some Saitek products under Windows 10 and to date I am not aware of any Windows 10 drivers. The drivers Windows 10 installed for my Saitek Pro Flight Cessna Yoke and Pro Flight Cessna Pedals are dated I believe as March 2011. I for one am able to work around the issues but do not have time this morning to write a message to detail it but here is the short story. It consists of changing settings in Windows to disable Advanced Power Management for the Saitek devices. Even then I must NOT unplug either Saitek device until after I have booted my system down to cold and dark (NOT just to Sleep), and I must NOT plug either Saitek device into any USB port until after I have fully booted my system up.  Failure to follow this sequence exactly results in my Microsoft mouse locking up.  This happens to me on my new fresh Windows 10 system and also happened on a completely different system I at one time migrated from Windows 7  to Windows 10.

 

Another issue is product availability.  Are you able to locate a source to order from that has the Saitek products in which you are interested in stock?  Most if not all suppliers have been out of stock for several months. Why is anyone's guess.

 

Thanks for the info. I'm sure I saw windows 8 drivers somewhere. Maybe on Saiteks website. I'd assume they work on windows 10 too?. I've seen a couple of places that seem to have them and you often see second hand ones on ebay.

 

Can't say Win10, but it's a joystick and presuming Win10 supports joysticks you should get basic functionality. But my advice is don't, the basic Saitek yoke is junk.

 

I have now seen enough evidence to suggest that the Cessna yoke may work better, so you might want to go for that one. It certainly has a different aileron mechanism and reportedly does not have the same built-in null zones in both axes. It still has the mechanical detentes, though.

 

What yoke would you recommend? I don't want to spend a massive amount as much as I'd like a GoFlight 737 yoke :D , my budget isn't big enough for that!

 

I have read about the detents and the mods you can do to remove them. This is why I'm contemplating buying a second hand one off the bay so that I can take it apart and mod it without worrying about voiding the warranty.

 

 

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What yoke would you recommend? I don't want to spend a massive amount as much as I'd like a GoFlight 737 yoke :D , my budget isn't big enough for that!

 

I have read about the detents and the mods you can do to remove them. This is why I'm contemplating buying a second hand one off the bay so that I can take it apart and mod it without worrying about voiding the warranty.

 

By all means get a second hand one if you're prepared to tinker, but it takes a lot of tinkering! Have a look at my latest video, which is about just this (click my banner below and look at the most recent video). In fact I'm not done tinkering yet because although the yoke action is now smooth the flat spot in the middle of the elevator action is a pain. My next step is to connect the elevator potentiometer directly to the input of a Logitech 3D Pro, which is how I currently have my FlightLink rudder pedals connected. I note you have a 3D Pro - you will find that the pots are connected to the controller with little plugs that can easily be disconnected, and it's then easy to insert pins (the kind used for sewing) into them and solder or croc-clip onto the ends. This makes it fairly straightforward to connect other things (like the Saitek's pots) to the Logitech's controller and bypass the whole nasty Saitek mess.

 

As for alternatives, I don't think there is a good one at the same price point.You might look at the VR Insight Flight Master, but that's still more expensive. There's also a one called Yoko the Yoke but I don't know what it costs. I have an Elite yoke but this was expensive and they are no longer available. It is a fantastic yoke, though.

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I would recommend the CH Flight Yoke as a great alternative to the Saitek Yoke.

 

I used a CH Eclipse Yoke for years until I opened it up to modify it and it never was the same after that. I bought a Saitek Yoke as a replacement, and was immediately disappointed. The hard detents and anything-but-smooth and short elevator axis made landings extremely hard to nail, and even consistent level-turns were tough to pull off. I ended up ditching it one month later for another CH Yoke, this time just a CH Flight Yoke without all the extra buttons and mode switching that the Eclipse has (and almost $100 less!).

 

The CH Yoke is better than the Saitek Yoke because:

  1. Smooth elevator and aileron axis (NO DETENTS!)
  2. Works out of the box, no extra drivers needed
  3. No Windows 10 compatibility problems
  4. Did I mention there is NO DETENTS

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I would recommend the CH Flight Yoke as a great alternative to the Saitek Yoke.

 

I used a CH Eclipse Yoke for years until I opened it up to modify it and it never was the same after that. I bought a Saitek Yoke as a replacement, and was immediately disappointed. The hard detents and anything-but-smooth and short elevator axis made landings extremely hard to nail, and even consistent level-turns were tough to pull off. I ended up ditching it one month later for another CH Yoke, this time just a CH Flight Yoke without all the extra buttons and mode switching that the Eclipse has (and almost $100 less!).

 

The CH Yoke is better than the Saitek Yoke because:

  1. Smooth elevator and aileron axis (NO DETENTS!)
  2. Works out of the box, no extra drivers needed
  3. No Windows 10 compatibility problems
  4. Did I mention there is NO DETENTS

 

 

What are you referring to as detents? I used a CH Pro Yoke for over 12 years and it was self centering just like the Saitek Cessna Pro Flight Yoke that replaced it. In terms of solid build, overall realistic feel, and smoothness, I just cannot fathom going back to the CH.  My CH would stick fore-aft and I kept a can of silicone spray nearby.  The CH also would not mount to any of four desks that I tried mounting it to unless I used a Dremel tool and modified each desk. The mount jaws just did not have enough reach forward under the desk. And often when I needed to use more than just cursory yoke pressure it would come loose from my modified desk.

 

Guess you'd have to say that I had to carve four "detents" into the bottom of my desks for the two pairs of mounting teeth to bite into.  My CH pedals also were a royal PITA as I had nothing to mount them to and all they would do was slide around when I attempted to use them.  So for years I used Thrustmaster pedals, which had their own issue (toe brake calibration).  My Saitek pedals have been fantastic.

Thanks for the info. I'm sure I saw windows 8 drivers somewhere. Maybe on Saiteks website. I'd assume they work on windows 10 too?. I've seen a couple of places that seem to have them and you often see second hand ones on ebay.

 

 

I honestly believe those are the 2011 drivers I have in use.  The Windows 10 issues are easily overcome, you may just need to change your pre-flight routine.  My system is not 100% dedicated to flight simulation. I use it for many other purposes. I always reboot before I fly. Now with the plug-in/unplug issues with the Saitek Cessna Pro Flight Yoke and Cessna Pro Flight Pedals that just has to be a cold boot and delaying connection of the devices until the boot up is complete, and as I stated earlier, booting fully down to cold and dark before unplugging.

 

Saitek on their Facebook page posted in early August that Windows 10 drivers were just around the corner. I believe about 30 days later they posted "...almost ready...."  No posts since then.  If you find Saitek Windows 10 drivers and the result is no more Windows 10 issues like described then please post back here. Please do. Need them. Want them.  All I can find is what I already have.

 

And if anyone finds Saitek Throttle Quadrants in stock and shipping from a well known USA online retailer please let me know as well. Have been looking for a new one from Amazon, Newegg, MicroCenter, etc etc etc for almost six months and none of them has come up with any supply.  Only promises of "shipping in ## days". Which has not happened.

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What are you referring to as detents? I used a CH Pro Yoke for over 12 years and it was self centering just like the Saitek Cessna Pro Flight Yoke that replaced it. In terms of solid build, overall realistic feel, and smoothness, I just cannot fathom going back to the CH.  My CH would stick fore-aft and I kept a can of silicone spray nearby.  The CH also would not mount to any of four desks that I tried mounting it to unless I used a Dremel tool and modified each desk. The mount jaws just did not have enough reach forward under the desk. And often when I needed to use more than just cursory yoke pressure it would come loose from my modified desk.

 

Guess you'd have to say that I had to carve four "detents" into the bottom of my desks for the two pairs of mounting teeth to bite into.  My CH pedals also were a royal PITA as I had nothing to mount them to and all they would do was slide around when I attempted to use them.  So for years I used Thrustmaster pedals, which had their own issue (toe brake calibration).  My Saitek pedals have been fantastic.

 

And if anyone finds Saitek Throttle Quadrants in stock and shipping from a well known USA online retailer please let me know as well. Have been looking for a new one from Amazon, Newegg, MicroCenter, etc etc etc for almost six months and none of them has come up with any supply.  Only promises of "shipping in ## days". Which has not happened.

 

Detents are mechanical stops, which the Saitek has for both the X and Y axes, and the CH does not. The CH only uses the springs as a centering force.

 

As for clamps, I have a set of clamp extenders that I ordered from CH, however I don't know if they are still available to order.

 

For a sticking elevator axis, I used silicone spray lubricant from DuPont that was recommended here on AVSIM, and have never had to relube it more than once.

 

To each his own, as I think it's ridiculous to argue over flight sim controllers, but for me I prefer the precision that a floating axis allows.

 

As for the Saitek Throttle Quadrant, here's a couple of links you might try:

 

http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/5472  (no indication of stock, may be a crap shoot)

 

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/additional-throttle-quadrant-for-flight-simulator.html?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Pilot+Training&adpos=1o2&creative=74938227262&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CL_mos_rhMkCFZSFfgodOc8ArA  (Ships on 11/24)

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Detents are mechanical stops, which the Saitek has for both the X and Y axes, and the CH does not. The CH only uses the springs as a centering force.

 

Is there a youtube video that demonstrates these detents? I honestly have no idea what you are referring to. My yoke, just like my CH Yoke, centers on both the X and Y axis. Just like my CH yoke I say again. Perhaps CH changed their product at sometime over the years, but the X/Y action of my Saitek and of my previous CH are the same.  My Saitek has a separate component quadrant, not some undersized small unrealistic levers mounted on top of the yoke. When I had the CH yoke I needed to use a separate Thrustmaster combat styled throttle to get close to realism.

 

I am not attempting to be tribal about brands here. I am dismayed at Saitek's failure to address issues with drivers for more recent versions of Windows, and especially to overcome Windows advanced power management issues. I would at this point love to see a competitive product to both CH and Saitek >>>> That is in the same price range <<<<.  It is overdue in the marketplace.

 

In regard to shipping dates, that Sporty's ship date has changed about one a week for the past several months, and none of the products or indicated ship dates have arrived without being replaced with a later date.  The same for Amazon and the same for NewEgg and all of the other sites I have checked. At this point I believe something is amiss.  

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Is there a youtube video that demonstrates these detents?

 

Try some of these: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saitek+yoke+internal

 

Here's the inside of the CH Yoke: 

 

 

It's very simple. The way that the Saitek Yoke centers is with mechanical stops that keep it centered on both the X and Y axis. The CH Yoke only uses springs (like some people have modded the Saitek Yoke to do), which means there is no hard stop to overcome before the axis starts moving.

 

I agree with you about the throttles, which is why I also have one of these: http://www.chproducts.com/Throttle-Quadrant-v13-d-718.html

 

I also use the Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals, not CH Rudder Pedals.

 

I'm trying to help you understand... but it's getting exhausting.  :Cuppa:

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I try not to exhaust your energy, but that video clearly shows my statements to be 100% accurate. Without modification both products self center on the X and Y axis.  The video extols the shortcomings of the built in quadrant on the CH Yoke as well as providing critical assessment of the sensitivity of the CH Yoke's pitch control.  Just want to validate that I watched the entire video.

 

My Saitek has never required even one application of silicone spray. It is made of sturdier, higher quality materials.

 

Guess if self-centering is something to dwell on to extreme, then the CH appears to be easier in terms of user-modifications. Wonder what percentage of each brands user base objects to self centering to the point of making user modifications....

 

Like I stated earlier. I would love to see a new competitor in the same price range that removes each of our tendencies toward brand satisfaction, for whatever reason(s) we hold those biases.  

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I try not to exhaust your energy, but that video clearly shows my statements to be 100% accurate. Without modification both products self center on the X and Y axis.

 

Yes, both self-centre under the spring tension but the CH does not precisely self-centre. The Saitek has a precise stop position in both pitch and roll, which is guaranteed by the design of the mechanism (or mechanisms, since the aileron and elevator actions are driven by separate springs). The CH centre position is free-floating and, if you believe the CH marketing material, it was designed to be deliberately imprecise in the manner of a real yoke. In other words you can push it and pull it a bit off the centre position and it will stay there, within about half an inch. Most importantly for flying, there is no notching tendency around the centre position so you can make precise adjustments during turns.

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Thanks for all the advice. Some interesting points made. Unfortunately all these entry level yokes look a bit "toy town" but to me the ch yoke looks slightly worse than the Saitek and I prefer the separate throttle quadrant. It seems after watching various you tube videos on both products they both require modding anyway to achieve the best feel. So I think I'll stick with the saitek. I've got my eye on a couple of second hand ones on eBay that look in good condition.

 

As previously mentioned second hand seems the better option dependent on the price due to having no warranty it makes more sense than buying a brand new product only to open it up and void the warranty on the day of purchase. However if the second hand items are not much cheaper I'll go for brand new.

 

It's a shame that the better yokes are so damn expensive. There is a gap in the market for sure, for someone who can manufacture a decent yoke at a reasonable price.

 

What would be amazing is to pull the control wheel of the saitek yoke and replace it with a 737 replica control wheel. I wonder if anyone has done this. Since I fly mostly airliners this would add a little extra to immersion.

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Yes, both self-centre under the spring tension but the CH does not precisely self-centre. The Saitek has a precise stop position in both pitch and roll, which is guaranteed by the design of the mechanism (or mechanisms, since the aileron and elevator actions are driven by separate springs). The CH centre position is free-floating and, if you believe the CH marketing material, it was designed to be deliberately imprecise in the manner of a real yoke. In other words you can push it and pull it a bit off the centre position and it will stay there, within about half an inch. Most importantly for flying, there is no notching tendency around the centre position so you can make precise adjustments during turns.

 

I understand what you are saying about self centering. You are more hung up on it than most. No pun intended. I am not. There are physical and visual senses present in real life in activities like flying an airplane, driving a car, or riding a motorcycle as examples that a PC based simulator just cannot provide. With each of those the operator is providing physical input virtually every second, fed by the senses. No roadway is perfectly flat, tires and suspension parts are not evenly worn, so the body senses the physical changes in real time and the activity requires constant correction, which is fed by the senses. I for one do not feel those senses why flying my PC based simulator, so I find only a small increment of need to provide constant reactive flight control inputs to counter what I cannot feel in the first place. Is that then 100% realistic you might say? Of course not. But the sim is not 100% realistic in the first place.

 

Back in the day when I used my first yoke, a CH yoke, I also used it as a steering wheel to better enjoy this driving entertainment software: 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Duel:_Test_Drive_II#Courses.  

 

It was fun, but no comparison to driving a real high performance sports car (or in my case high performance motorcycle) on those kinds of California roads. The differences between a PC simulation and real life in flying or driving is so wide in terms of the senses, feedback, and input, that self centering action of a yoke is in my experience minuscule versus the sum of the real differences. Certainly not important enough to me to open up and modify either brand yoke. It just closes such a small increment of the difference between real life and PC simulation.

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I understand what you are saying about self centering. You are more hung up on it than most

Well I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. To remind you, we were just trying to explain what a 'detente' was, and to point out that the CH and Saitek yokes differ in this respect.

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