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Engine failure QRH

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Looking at my RYR QRH, you have ENGINE FIRE or Engine Severe Damage or Separation. And the list of conditions. If i programme my software to have a V1 CUT which results in SEVERE DAMAGE on ENG X why doesn't the condition list have ENGINE FAILURE shown? Because with SEVERE DAMAGE on my engine display it shows ENG FAIL alert on the EGT. Wouldn't that lead you to look at the Engine Failure or Shutdown NNC instead as those conditions have - An ENG FAIL alert shows.


Vernon Howells

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Looking at my RYR QRH, you have ENGINE FIRE or Engine Severe Damage or Separation. And the list of conditions. If i programme my software to have a V1 CUT which results in SEVERE DAMAGE on ENG X why doesn't the condition list have ENGINE FAILURE shown? Because with SEVERE DAMAGE on my engine display it shows ENG FAIL alert on the EGT. Wouldn't that lead you to look at the Engine Failure or Shutdown NNC instead as those conditions have - An ENG FAIL alert shows.

 

Not sure what you're getting at here...

 

A conditions list is there to help you identify a problem. If your nose swings during takeoff, one of your engine gauges goes plummeting, and you're flying kinda sideways after leaving the ground, it's pretty clear what happened and it shouldn't require a book or conditions list to help you ascertain what's going on. At that point, your main focus should be keeping the aircraft in the air, and as time/workload allows, complete the checklist. The checklist to be completed, however, should already be clear at that point.

 

Keep in mind, as well, that the naming of the failures in the failures list is not directly parallel to the QRH. Severe damage in an engine might not manifest in an ENG FAIL light, as it could still be severely damaged and still running without the light.


Kyle Rodgers

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Thats my point, if i select VX CUT it always results in SEVERE DAMAGE ENG X and on the EGT it shows that alert - ENG FAIL. So that leads me to the engine failure QRH NNC instead of the Engine fire engine severe damage or separation.


Vernon Howells

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Thats my point, if i select VX CUT it always results in SEVERE DAMAGE ENG X and on the EGT it shows that alert - ENG FAIL. So that leads me to the engine failure QRH NNC instead of the Engine fire engine severe damage or separation.

 

That would make sense to me. Again, the failures list names aren't paralleled by the QRH. It said ENG FAIL, so you went with the list that cites ENG FAIL in the conditions. Part of being a pilot is exercising your judgment to meet the challenges at hand. An engine failed. You responded. Now put the plane on the ground.


Kyle Rodgers

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I suppose engine vib and engine fail would lead me to ENG SEVERE DAMAGE or SEPARATION memory items. But in the NGX you can't feel VIB


Vernon Howells

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I suppose engine vib and engine fail would lead me to ENG SEVERE DAMAGE or SEPARATION memory items. But in the NGX you can't feel VIB

 

True, but you can see it - last stat in the stack:

2015-2-12_18-34-6-42.jpg


Kyle Rodgers

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Yes but with severe damage VIB shows 0

 

I tried to activate VIB failure during flight but nothing happens?


Vernon Howells

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Yes but with severe damage VIB shows 0

 

Yeah, when the core is locked from the severe damage, there isn't much rotation going on to contribute to vibration...


Kyle Rodgers

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Ok. So I activated VIB failure only and both VIB on both engines where the same?

Hmm to answer my own question on this thread, I think that is to prevent someone from going into the wrong checklist. An engine failure is not a severe damage, and a restart might be attempted. After a severe damage, obviously, the engine cannot be restarted.


Vernon Howells

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Hi Vernon.

 

Are the NNC's for engine failure/fire/severe damage/seperation different in your QRH?

 

In the one I'm using, they all point to NNC 8.2. So it "doesn't matter" what scenario has happened, you'd end up using the same procedure.

 

As to engine vibrations, I had this on a recent flight in cruise. The compacted engine display came into view with a box around the parameters and the out of range engine vibration flashed in reverse video and eventually stopped flashing. So it definitely works.


Brian Nellis

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Also worth noting that in many cases (I don't know about RYR specifically) the SOP is to assume severe damage, and run the severe damage procedure, unless there is absolutely abundantly clear evidence that the engine has "simply" flamed out. So in almost all cases you would be running the full procedure to secure the engine (including pulling the fire handle etc) as per the severe damage checklist anyway.


Simon Kelsey

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Hi brian. My RYR QRH also has 8.2 for the engine fire or engine severe damage or separation. I set engine vibration failure during flight and seen no difference in vibration!?

 

Hi simon, so why does the ENG FAILURE flag show on the EGT readout but its not showing on the conditions list in the QRH for engine fire or engine severe damage or separation. If you don't have vibration wouldn't this lead you to the wrong NNC? And instead to the Engine Failure or Shutdown


Vernon Howells

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Vernon, if I'm understanding the question correctly you're wondering if the ENG FAIL flag will appear on the upper display when the engine experiences severe damage, like it does on the NGX? Answer is yes, that flag appears any time the engine fails - the alerting system doesn't care why. You then have to decide if it's a simple flame out or "severe damage". That's typically understood to be severe vibration, lack of rotation on either spool, or fire. So you just assess the situation and run the appropriate checklist.


Andrew Crowley

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Hi simon, so why does the ENG FAILURE flag show on the EGT readout but its not showing on the conditions list in the QRH for engine fire or engine severe damage or separation. If you don't have vibration wouldn't this lead you to the wrong NNC? And instead to the Engine Failure or Shutdown

Hi Vernon,

 

I have to defer to those with better knowledge of the 737 as my FS experience is mainly limited to the 767 and 747, both of which have full EICAS rather than the more limited annunciators on the 737.

 

However, as mentioned above, you generally have to decide as the pilot whether to apply the straight ENG FAIL or the severe damage/separation checklist. On the 747 at least, the only practical difference is that you pull the fire handle after shutting the engine down, which precludes a relight.

 

In practice: if there is no N1 or N2 rotation, the failure is associated with any sort of odd noise or vibration or the fire bell is going off, then you can assume severe damage. Some airlines apply further guidance that basically any engine failure should be assumed to be severe damage, the engine fully secured and no relight attempt made (because let's face it -- if the engine fails it's probably goosed).

 

If you have just a high vibration indication but the engine is otherwise producing thrust normally then you would do the vibration procedures.


Simon Kelsey

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Cheers guys i see the daylight lol . So When it comes to identifying whether you have a flame out or severe damage you have to look beyond the "eng fail" alert. So This alert appears to simply alert the crew that the engine has "wound down" (N2 below 50% and eng start lever at idle) not why.


Vernon Howells

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