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Dreamflight767

FMS ETOPS set-up

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Hi:

 

There appears to be some nice ETOPS tutorials for the 777 FMS.  However, I have not been able to locate any for the 737.  Can anyone point me in the direction for such ETOPS tutorials for the 737 FMS? Specifically how and where to input Entry/Exit Points, the alternates, and CRP. 

 

Also, the 777 FMS lets you draw the ETOPS NM radius in the fix page. i.e. 1270NM around the fix.  The 737 appears to be limited to 500ish NM.

 

Any reason?

 

Thanks.

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I don't know of any, but I've used the 737 on numerous ETOPS trips to/from the Hawaiian Islands. You put the desired points on the FIXES pages but you are limited so you'll only put three or four and keep updating as the flight progresses. Correct on the nice radii, you have to check the distance to by looking at the FIXES page.

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My SOP is to put them on the NAV DATA page. EEP NXXxx.x and WXXXxx.x. We make sure they fall on the course.

 

Alternately, I think some companies leave hanging legs at the end of the LEGS page.

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I've never flown the 737 ETOPS so I've never tried that. Can we do this on NGX? When I fly NGX ETOPS I just use the fix page and set a distance.

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Yeah, like Spin said, we create user waypoints on the Nav Data page. Problem is, that's buggy on the NGX; if I remember right, you can enter a custom name (like EEP) but the box never gives you the option to enter coordinates. So, seems like the Fix page is the best way.

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737 on numerous ETOPS trips to/from the Hawaiian Islands

Using FSDT KDFW and PHNL airports? <G>

 

blaustern

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Using FSDT KDFW and PHNL airports? <G>

 

blaustern

Heavens, not from Dallas but there are plenty of actual 73X flights from West Coast from CYVR to KSAN.

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Also, the 777 FMS lets you draw the ETOPS NM radius in the fix page. i.e. 1270NM around the fix.  The 737 appears to be limited to 500ish NM.

 

Any reason?

 

The actual limit is 511NM, and it's because of an FMS processing power limitation (someone more technical than I would be able to explain properly, but essentially it's because 2-- 512 -- is a numeric processing limit of the CPU involved and 0-511 is 512). Some (but not all) newer FMCs (like in the 777) have slightly more powerful processors and permit larger range rings (and in the PMDG 747 the 511NM limit is not simulated).

 

I also seem to recall that a bearing line (drawn via the FIX page) has a limit of 699.9NM -- supposedly because this was considered to be the longest useful distance of a rhumb line (vs a Great Circle) from days of yore, but how true that is I don't know!

 

As mentioned above, place the ETP on the FIX page, on RTE2 or perhaps as a "floating" waypoint at the end of the active route after a discontinuity. However, what you should not do is place it in the active route as it will screw up your ADS position reporting and Kyle will get a load of paperwork  :wink:

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Very useful info. guys.  Thanks much but some of these responses has lead to more questions.

 

My SOP is to put them on the NAV DATA page. EEP NXXxx.x and WXXXxx.x. We make sure they fall on the course.

 

Alternately, I think some companies leave hanging legs at the end of the LEGS page.

 

 How do you do this?  When I attempt to enter LAT/LONG in the NAV DATA I get an "invalid" message.

 

 

 


As mentioned above, place the ETP on the FIX page, on RTE2 or perhaps as a "floating" waypoint at the end of the active route after a discontinuity.

 

Is there a way to add a discontinuity?

 

If not an "active" route, does RTE2 show on the NAV display?

---

 

I also came across this which is very helpful from another thread.

 

"It is possible to enter Lat/Lon as fix on LEGS page, and I provided references to help you (both a link and a page number).  However, in this case it is better to enter an along-route fix.  PFPX will provide a distance before fix at ETP, such as 53 nm before MARON.  Enter this fix by clicking on LSB next to MARON (for example) which puts MARON in the scratchpad area, then enter /-53 such the the scratchpad reads MARON/-53. Now move it from the scratchpad to your leg segments by clicking again on the MARON LSB.  This will create a custom waypoint 53 nm before MARON along the original route.

 

This is an example of the PBD custom waypoints described in the references I provided."

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"Enter this fix by clicking on LSB next to MARON (for example) which puts MARON in the scratchpad area, then enter /-53 such the the scratchpad reads MARON/-53. Now move it from the scratchpad to your leg segments by clicking again on the MARON LSB.  This will create a custom waypoint 53 nm before MARON along the original route.

 

I should add, after I do the above step, I click on LSB next to the newly created fix (i.e. MAR01) to move it to the scratchpad then copy to the FIX page.  Then, I go back to the LEG page and delete the newly created fix (MAR01) from the LEG and fill the RTE DISC normally.  Thus, the MAR01 is not on the LEG page but is on the FIX page and displayed along the route.  And being MAR01 is in the FIX page, you can add a distance radius around it.

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Hey guys. I think there is some confusion on the ETOPs stuff. First, put the range rings based on the airport that your etops entry point and ETOPs exit point is based on. That is 394 nautical miles for a winglet aircraft and 388 for a non winglet aircraft. These distances are your single engine, cruise speed (TAS) in still wind conditions at 10,000 feet. When we do a CYVR-PHOG it most likely is 394 based on Portland and 394 from PHOG (remember you have to take in to account the weather forecast weather conditions for your ETOPs airports which are more restrictive that a regular alternate airport). As soon as you are outside these range rings you are in ETOPs airspace. Now you input the coordinates of your equal time point (ETP). On this leg there is only one ETP. Going over the Atlantic there may be a couple. So your ETP would be the equal time point from PHOG and Portland (KPDX) and being an equal time point, obviously this is based on wind conditions. That's just a quick idea of how to get started. Lots more to know for ETOPs flying but I gotta get to bed! Take care!

Jack Colwill

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Hey guys. I think there is some confusion on the ETOPs stuff. First, put the range rings based on the airport that your etops entry point and ETOPs exit point is based on. That is 394 nautical miles for a winglet aircraft and 388 for a non winglet aircraft. These distances are your single engine, cruise speed (TAS) in still wind conditions at 10,000 feet. When we do a CYVR-PHOG it most likely is 394 based on Portland and 394 from PHOG (remember you have to take in to account the weather forecast weather conditions for your ETOPs airports which are more restrictive that a regular alternate airport). As soon as you are outside these range rings you are in ETOPs airspace. Now you input the coordinates of your equal time point (ETP). On this leg there is only one ETP. Going over the Atlantic there may be a couple. So your ETP would be the equal time point from PHOG and Portland (KPDX) and being an equal time point, obviously this is based on wind conditions. That's just a quick idea of how to get started. Lots more to know for ETOPs flying but I gotta get to bed! Take care!

Jack Colwill

394nm? Slowpokes. Are you LRC or "normal" cruise? We push it to 310kts.

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Thanks Jack for feedback.  I think that's the whole point of my original request - how/what and where (i.e. which page: FIX, LEG, ALT ARPT, etc.) to put ETOPS (ETPs, ENTRY/EXIT points, coordinates, CRP, CLASS II entry, etc.) data into the FMS.

 

Question, do most carriers input the "distance before" figures or the coordinates?  I.e. if ETOPS entry is 205 NM BEFORE GITLE, do they put GITLE/-205 or do they enter that locations coordinates N33 42.0 W129 12.1?  And again, where?  The LEGS or FIX page?

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Thanks Jack for feedback.  I think that's the whole point of my original request - how/what and where (i.e. which page: FIX, LEG, ALT ARPT, etc.) to put ETOPS (ETPs, ENTRY/EXIT points, coordinates, CRP, CLASS II entry, etc.) data into the FMS.

 

Question, do most carriers input the "distance before" figures or the coordinates?  I.e. if ETOPS entry is 205 NM BEFORE GITLE, do they put GITLE/-205 or do they enter that locations coordinates N33 42.0 W129 12.1?  And again, where?  The LEGS or FIX page?

 

My company avoids using fixes to define the EEP, EXP and CP. We plot them via coordinates and they should still fall on the route. If they don't, you screwed up somewhere.

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Hey Aaron, Matt. The 73 uses the smiths fms and I just started flying the 76 which uses the Pegasus. Each has its pluses and minuses. The 76 won't let us go to the navdata and build a fix based on coordinates. Goofy I know. Aaron, for the EEP and EXP you need to know your ETOPs alternate airports and place a 394 nm ring on the fix page based on these alternate airports. Don't do the "distance before" like you were describing. Now the ETP, on the 73, we go to the navdata page and create a fix called ETP1 and build it by using coordinates. THAT being said, on the 76 we do a distance before type ring but I won't get into that since it's the 76 and its kinda goofy how we do it.

Jack Colwill

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Very useful info. guys.  Thanks much but some of these responses has lead to more questions.

 

How do you do this?  When I attempt to enter LAT/LONG in the NAV DATA I get an "invalid" message.

 

 

Different operators do this differently; we plot ours in the NAV DATA like you tried. I think I remember this coming up before on here; I think it's already a known bug for PMDG... but what should happen when you enter a waypoint name on the NAV DATA page that doesn't exist in the database, is that boxes should appear for you to enter the position of your custom waypoint. This doesn't happen in the PMDG box.

 

See pic: Here I'm creating a waypoint named EEP, for "ETOPS Entry Point":

 

<img src="https://www.anony.ws/i/2016/01/13/20160112_004546.jpg" border="0">

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Thank you Stear.

 

Does PMDG know about this "bug"?  The NAV DATA does seem to be the easiest way to do this.

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Thank you Stear.

 

Does PMDG know about this "bug"?  The NAV DATA does seem to be the easiest way to do this.

I'm not sure it counts as a bug as it's an FMC feature PMDG haven't simulated. However there is a way around it by creating a custom waypoint in the LEGS page. The effect is pretty much the same as adding a custom waypoint in NAV DATA except you can't name it and you don't get boxed prompts to help with the formatting..

 

Add the ETP as a custom lat/long waypoint at the dashed prompt after the last waypoint on the last LEGS page. The FMC will assign a name (WPT01, WPT02) and it will appear on the MAP while not actually being part of the current route. You can also make it a FIX so you get a range ring and an ETA.

 

The full lat/long format is

 

Nddmm.yWdddmm.z

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Yeah that works, only issue with putting them on the Legs page is they screw up the course / distance values between waypoints, so when you do your class II nav checks of course and distance to next WP, you gotta do mental math. I avoid that when possible ;-).

 

The one time I tried an oceanic flight in the ngx, I used the Fix page, I agree that's probably best since custom WPs in Nav Data doesn't work.

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Yeah that works, only issue with putting them on the Legs page is they screw up the course / distance values between waypoints, so when you do your class II nav checks of course and distance to next WP, you gotta do mental math. I avoid that when possible ;-).

 

The one time I tried an oceanic flight in the ngx, I used the Fix page, I agree that's probably best since custom WPs in Nav Data doesn't work.

With the custom waypoint at the end of the legs unlinked to any other waypoint it doesn't interfere with distance to next waypoint as it isn't in sequence. It does appear on the map however. It's no different to creating a waypoint in NAV DATA.
  • Upvote 1

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True, if you create a disco and then enter the points, that would work. Until you wanted to add/change an approach runway, but I guess you could wait until you were out of ETOPS airspace.

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I put it right at the end of LEGS, after the arrival, runway, missed approach, etc. Pretty much where Matt said he put the NAV DATA created waypoint. So it shouldn't interfere with adding or changing approaches. I didn't need to create a disco either, it didn't connect to the preceding waypoint.

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