fsx-ms If I manage to master high-end add-on planes, would I be able to fly them in real world?

[Great Ozzie 101]

There's absolutely no contradiction between flying a simulator and flying in real life.

 

 

I'm sorry...

 

But that statement is just plain not grounded in reality.

[computerflyer 6]

Great Ozzie, I didn't say that sim flying and real flying are equivalent or the same.  I said that both have value and there's no reason why someone shouldn't do both. They can complement each other.  Do you actually disagree with that?  Did you read what I said, or just read the first sentence?

[Chris Crawford 49]

Flight sims can help you more during instrument training, rather than private. But, you can also use them to get a general idea of how aircraft operate. Say for example using an A2A 172, you can practice doing run-ups, seeing at what speed the aircraft will generally stall in different configurations, where the horizon will be on steep turns, etc.. Once you fly the real aircraft, you can then start associating the feelings that come. You'll also learn that every aircraft you fly, no matter if they're only 172's, all have their own little quirks about them. Some will require more trim, some stall at slightly different speeds, some will be the best flying aircraft ever, some will be a PITA, and so on. Not one aircraft is exactly the same!

[Great Ozzie 101]

Well to me... to say There's absolutely no contradiction between flying a simulator and flying in real life and both have value and there's no reason why someone shouldn't do both. They can complement each other are two completely different statements.

 

I see the "contradiction" in the weather example. Dealing with thunderstorms one example. Icing another. Sure you can set up Low IFR conditions and practice approaches. Great for that.

 

I also don't see how one could "keep their abilities fresh" in the traffic pattern solely by using the sim. Supplement, sure.  Below an example:

 

-----------------------

NTSB 2016 MOST WANTED - Transportation Safety Improvements
Prevent Loss of Control in Flight in General Aviation

While airline accidents have become relatively rare in the United States, pilots and passengers involved in general aviation (GA) operations still die at alarming rates every year due to loss of aircraft control by the pilot. Between 2008 and 2014, about 47 percent of fatal fixed-wing GA accidents in the United States involved pilots losing control of their aircraft in flight, resulting in 1,210 fatalities. Statistically, approach to landing, maneuvering, and initial climb are the deadliest phases of flight for loss-of-control accidents. Pilots should:

• Be prepared to recognize stall characteristics and warning signs, and be able to apply appropriate recovery techniques before stall onset.
• Be honest with themselves about their knowledge level of stalls, and their ability to recognize and handle them.
• Use effective aeronautical decision-making techniques and flight risk assessment tools during both preflight planning and inflight operations.
• Manage distractions so that they do not interfere with situational awareness.
• Understand, properly train, and maintain currency in the equipment and airplanes they operate.
• Take advantage of available commercial trainer, type club, and transition training opportunities.
• Realize stall characteristics can vary with aircraft loading and are usually worse at aft CG (center of gravity).
-----------------------
I am just wondering how in the world a person using only a sim can realistically address any one of the above points. And that is just a tiny slice of the flying pie.

[computerflyer 6]

"I am just wondering how in the world a person using only a sim can realistically address any one of the above points."

 

Great Ozzie, I never said that a sim can replace real-world flying, or that a sim is useful in all ways, for all issues.  You're putting words in my mouth.  I said that a sim can have value for real-world pilots.  I said that there's no contradiction, or reason against, being both a real-world pilot and also being a sim user.  I assumed this would be non-controversial.  

 

Pilots who have used a sim to practice in advance a planned real-world flight would be surprised to hear that a sim is of no use to real-world pilots.  The FAA is allowing simulators to be used for some explicit, limited types of real-world training.  Redbird is producing simulators (with assistance from A2A Simulations) for real-world training. Lockheed-Martin purchased FSX from Microsoft for the purpose of real-world training, not for entertainment.  So, as I said, simulators can be useful, in certain ways, for real-world pilots. I'm really not interested in arguing this point any further.

[charliearon 3,024]

Pilots who have used a sim to practice in advance a planned real-world flight would be surprised to hear that a sim is of no use to real-world pilots. 

It sure seemed to work good for the pilot of MH370 that practiced his route on his home computer before taking the

plunge into the Indian Ocean.

[Great Ozzie 101]

I said that there's no contradiction, or reason against, being both a real-world pilot and also being a sim user.

 

 

Apologies then... I completely mis-understood what you were initially trying to say. Thanks for clarifying. I was only using your examples which I disagreed with - and I explained why. For example, the meaning of "bad weather" can mean different things to different people. One way I think of bad weather is dealing with thunderstorms. FSX - in my opinion - encourages flying thru thunderstorms. That is one right way to getting yourself killed in a small GA aircraft. Things like that came to mind.

 

Yeah clear on all the simulator stuff. My days with FAA approved sims harken back several decades to the Frasca 141.

 

Of course, having something like P3D does not an aviation training device make. But sure, if I was currently instructing and had a student with a flight sim, I am absolutely certain for some things I would say, "go home and practice such and such." I know I practice certain things and think it beneficial. You mentioned: Real cross-country flights can be practiced in the sim prior to the real flight. and I certainly think that would be a great pre-planning tool. Edit: I actually posted on that very subject recently at A2A Forums - Flying Into AirVenture

 

 

Great Ozzie, I never said that a sim can replace real-world flying, or that a sim is useful in all ways, for all issues. You're putting words in my mouth.

 

You did say:

 

keeping abilities fresh with the sim, instead of banging around the airport circuit at $100 per hour.

 

I'm sorry, but I took issue with that - again explaining why. That's all. If you wish not to discuss further, of course that is fine with me.

 

Best,

Rob O.

[MarkJHarris 128]

OK, sorry, been away getting my CV1 Oculus Rift all set up and ready.

 

So, I fly Sims and real planes too. I agree with BusDriver in that the advanced Sims do allow you to learn FMC/FMS programming quite well, and also enable you to practice flows and checklists if you have the correct manuals with you. If you have Navigraph Charts, you can also practice SIDs and STARS as well as instrument approaches quite well, where feeling is less important than protocol and SOPs and in real life the autopilot is in anyway.

 

However, when you start flying the initial exercises are all about feel, pitch, roll and yaw, all the things you feel in your inner ear and the start of building th motor skills you will need. 

 

Can this be replicated in a Simulator. Well, $35million Level D simulators are pretty crap at this too. However I can thouroughly recommend you concentrate on something like the A2A C172 for now. A Saitek Cessna throttle, Trim and yolk plus pedals is essential, but a proper rig with an OR or Vive makes a huge and fundemental difference to the immersion and feeling. I can just about fly a chopper, but no chance in a flight sim, bu with the OR it's just like the real thing.

 

If you haven't tried one of these new 4K VR headsets, then it is impossible to contemplate what it's like. Not a single person who has tried my headset hasn't been flabbergasted by the sensation and immersion. And that's just with simple Demos. I'm not selling, I don't care which one you go for, but either will make the leap to enable you to actually feel the sensations of being in the aircraft.

 

Shortly Flyinside is being upgraded to better make use of the Leap Motion sensor.  Apparently I'm told you will be able to do without controls and just hold your fist up and steer with it! The tactile feel of a real yolk is better though. In my case pushing the dummy TOGA switches and the leap motion seeing it and pushing the Virtual ones for me is awesome....

 

 

So, with 11k hours, current 737 pilot and ex flying instructor with 800hrs in C152/172, I do believe this setup can actually give you a benefit.

 

 

Oh and to the Q400 pilot who struggled with the Majestic Q400, it's more the hardware and Sim's fault than his....I could never get my FJS one to use the roll spoilers which at slow speed is a real hinderance.

[swood721 28]

Great post, Mark. I purchased the Level D 767 when it came out way back when. I was probably in high school or had just stared college, I can't remember, and I felt like I had a very good grasp on the sim. I could fly it well and basically understand the systems.

 

Fast forward to today and I'm 29 and just started flying the 757/767 in real life. As much as I flew it in FSX and thought I had a pretty good understanding, it was nothing even close to actually learning and truly understanding the airplane. It did help me with FMS knowledge, but there are quite a number of functions that FS can't simulate, so even that was a bit of a learning curve.

 

Aside from systems, FS just can't simulate the flight dynamics as they are in real life. Close, but still not the same. On top of everything airplane related, it's difficult to fully immerse yourself without all of the paperwork, charts, performance data, etc. Level D may have provided some of that data in the manuals, but I guess I missed them if they did. Either way, that's another thing the sim doesn't really address much if at all.

 

All that being said, I still do enjoy flying the Level D, especially now. I think flying light airplanes in FS would help. I did it quite a bit before I started my PPL and it definitely helped me, especially with the instrument scan. Good luck on your training when you start, it's a truly wonderful experience that can't be matched my anything.

[LAdamson 240]

One thing for sure. If someone flies enough, to develop the feel of it all in their brain, then good sim planes can do a pretty decent job of replicating the experience, because our brains can fill the gaps. The brain can easily tell us that we're moving, when actually sitting still. It's all from what the eye sees. And happily, the sense of movement within a static flight sim is all eye generated. 

[jcomm 5,938]

One thing for sure. If someone flies enough, to develop the feel of it all in their brain, then good sim planes can do a pretty decent job of replicating the experience, because our brains can fill the gaps. The brain can easily tell us that we're moving, when actually sitting still. It's all from what the eye sees. And happily, the sense of movement within a static flight sim is all eye generated. 

 

Very well put into words Larry!

[vololiberista 205]

You need to go up for two trial lessons in a real a/c. One in VMC and the other in IMC. You need the instructor to ask you "What are we doing?" "Where are we?" "Where will we land if the engine packs up?". Ask him to get you to set-up all the instruments correctly, do the radio etc etc.

Then you'lll notice that there's a big difference between a desk top sim and real life.

Think about all the exams you may take just as a PPL. All with very high pass percentages. If you screw the RT exam you can say goodbye to a flying career.

[MarkJHarris 128]

The real problem, of course, is you can build a damn good sim rig for the cost of just a few flying lessons....

[twojastara 85]

The real problem, of course, is you can build a damn good sim rig for the cost of just a few flying lessons....

 

Yes, but I always say that the money that I have put into PPL is a fair price for a dream of my life.

 

There is something mystical in renting a plane, flying alone and enjoying the freedom.

[vololiberista 205]

 

There is something mystical in renting a plane, flying alone and enjoying the freedom.

Yes, while your passengers are admiring the view, you on the other hand are assessing every patch of passing green as a potential emergency landing spot. :smile: