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Guest vas_yan

DoD Announces Intent to Cease Distribution of Nav Data

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Hey Gang,Just trying to get my head around this one....!!According to the announcement (Latest News - AVSIM home page etc) NAVDATA won't be available (publicly) after Oct 05. Does this mean effectively our SID/STAR data etc in, for example PMDG737 becomes stuck in a time warp from there on in ?Surely this will also effect future programming etc.Call me sceptical - but this could be the start of many further far reaching changes to effect the flying industry as a whole. Where will FS9 go after here ? Will it fall foul also to this type of sweeping decision ?Thought provoking stuff me thinks to say the least.Anyone else want to cast their thoughts on this ?Yours Concerned......Eddy:-roll

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What will happen is that only the current SIDSTARS will be availible from here on out. Any updates to it will not be given out by the USGov anymore.

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Exactly. But that leaves us nav pilot types further away from 'as real as it gets'It worries me for what might be looked at next on the government hit list though.Ed

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Hello All,Well, I think we've reached the point where the US Govt, has come to the understanding that our good terrorist of the world are using our own information, which has been so freely available under the 'freedom of information act', against us. I'm not sure how they would use this data, however, certain individuals in the DoD have made that decision and it obviously will stand.On the point of a time warp, well, I don't believe it will kill any of us FSimmers, but I would say its best now to get the info while we sttil can. I am dead sure that we, as simmers are the LAST group of individuals they even considered would be affected by this move, nor did they care . . . such is life and we are stuck with it.Face it guys and gals, with the problems of the world being influenced by terrorist org's, it IS high time that EVERY govt in the world tightens down on some information. I am a firm believer that there is SOME information that the public just doesn't have a right to know. I doubt if this is one of them, but it doesn't seem to matter, the hammer has struck the anvil and so be it.Expect to see this in other arena's also, or just give the world up to the radical fanatics who want to destroy freedom and decorum for everyone -- I do know this, having many friends in the US Intelligence community, with the new director of the CIA and such, there will be many changes in our policies in months to come. Not wishing to insult anyone, so no flames please, but we are about to see that the nations who view us as the 'Ugly Americans', will be told to go fend for themselves and just leave us alone . . .and if they don't, the harsh realities of our violent world may come to pass.Certain individuals in the US govt have had it up to their eyebrows with nations who with one arm hold out their hands for free this and that, and with the other, carry a sign saying "Yankee Go Home". Well, they may, perhaps get their wish . . . we just may take our football and go play in another arena. Sometimes it is wise to be careful of what you wish for. Also, I do believe that it is time for the USA to take care of it's own problems . . . we have more than enough here at home to keep us busy for quite awhile.Again, please no flames, but this seems to be the beginning of Americans taking care of Americans, and I for one, am totally in favor of it, no matter if it does hamper my FS ability. To those countries who have stood by us in even the darkest of times, we have always remembered our friends and will continue to do so . . . that's what being an American is all about. To all my friends around the world who really know me, understand that I am as loyal as a farmers coon dog . . . those who stand with me, I will be at their back, those who refuse, well, guess you have to fend for yourself. Nothing personal here . . . I guess it is just what this world is coming to, and it doesn't have to be this way . . . unfortunately, it has gotten to that point.Best to all . . .peace is obtainable, but it is a costly commodity.Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

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The FS9 sky is not falling and I'm sure that we'll all do just fine. I'm all for "as real as it gets" but I don't care if I've all the "real" sids and stars, I'll make up my own if I have too. If the FS world "froze" right now in terms of "accurate" ILS frequencies or runway alignment or whatever, guess what.........I could fly VERY happily with FS9 ro FS10 or FS11 for the rest of my natural flight simming life!Cheers!!!Randy Jura, KPDX

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Hey - me too.I understand there is a need to stop terrorism, and I take on board Claytons thoughts too. But, I feel concerned, that they are happy to remove this sort of data, there is probably a good chance that our fantastic sim (and lets face it - it is fast becoming a very good training device, approved or not) will come under scrutiny again.Just my thoughts....Happy Flyin (whatever)Ed :-hmmm

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Hey - me too.I understand there is a need to stop terrorism, and I take on board Claytons thoughts too. But, I feel concerned, that they are happy to remove this sort of data, there is probably a good chance that our fantastic sim (and lets face it - it is fast becoming a very good training device, approved or not) will come under scrutiny again.Just my thoughts....Happy Flyin (whatever)Ed :-abduct

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Clay,Of course I understand the need to stop terrorism and secure the homeland, however things such as this I don't believe are accomplishing that goal at all. I don't believe the goverment should have a blank check to take whatever they want away from the people in the name of stopping terrorism. Of course they shouldn't have blueprints for our nuclear reactor cooling systems or the floorplan of a missile silo online, but what could a terrorist possibly do with raw aeronautical navdata? (or even processed navdata for that matter)It's thought that the 9/11 hijackers used handheld GPSs and a very very basic knowlege of the 757/767's MCP autoflight controls to find their way back to NY and DC. They weren't whipping out the free goverment charts off the Internet and flying radials and they certainly weren't setting up FMC legs by entering in navdata!I'd be much much more inclined to believe that this actually has more to do with the whole Jeppesen situation than with preventing terrorism - that's just a convenient excuse at this point: remember the closing of Meigs in Chicago? The goverment there tried to say that was about stopping 9/11 style attacks on downtown Chicago, but it was really about the mayor pulling a power play to sieze the land for a park he wanted to build.

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terrorist organizations do not use this information.why?this information is available from literally hundreds of sources. The minimal cost of obtaining this information to a group who would do us harm is insignificant. I will go one further, this information is usless.When a truck was used to blow up the trade centers, were road atlases confined to a narrow and specific user group?If one spends just a few seconds more in thinking about this, they will come to realize it is what almost all measures we see today are...simply mass scare tactic.too bad actually, I only hope my children will grow up in a better situation then we have now, and will for some time I am afraid.

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".....but we are about to see that the nations who view us as the 'Ugly Americans', will be told to go fend for themselves and just leave us alone . . .and if they don't, the harsh realities of our violent world may come to pass.Certain individuals in the US govt have had it up to their eyebrows with nations who with one arm hold out their hands for free this and that, and with the other, carry a sign saying "Yankee Go Home". Well, they may, perhaps get their wish . . . we just may take our football and go play in another arena. Sometimes it is wise to be careful of what you wish for. Also, I do believe that it is time for the USA to take care of it's own problems . . . we have more than enough here at home to keep us busy for quite awhile."Clay, I respect you a lot, but having found my wife outside of this country, I am really disappointed with your remarks. I thought this thread was about distribution of Nav Data--not the perceptions of America abroad or some perceived need for "Americans to take care of Americans".But since you raise the issue, let me speak on the subject--having been an American abroad (and I'm sure you served abroad--I'm just noting that in case some here don't know I've been abroad as well).My father was among the first generation in my family to be born here. He worked as a government employee for 50 years--volunteered during WWII, returned to Korea and then worked the remainder of his career building the nuclear program for both the Navy and the civilian government. He welcomed my wife into the family with the most open of arms. Never once did he apply the litmus test of how friendly her government was towards the U.S. At best, her government would be that old term of "non-aligned".My Godfather (God rest his soul) was Cuban--a good friend of my wife's family, a very religious man. Never once did I hear him complain about the 40+ year embargo against his country. He figured it was just a battle among politicians, and lived in the conditions the embargo helps perpetuate. He was the most non-political person I ever knew, but I know were one to think of Cuba, one would assume they all want to see us turn back into shrubland.To be frank, I feel it's posts like this that perpetuate "Ugly Americans". Don't you think countries abroad pay a price for the pittance of aid we provide? 90 pct of the things we own are made by people earning pennies an hour. Those people (those that are allowed to know of such things) can't understand comments like "Americans taking care of Americans". They take care of us, and we turn a blind eye to the conditions they work under.Anyway, I should quit now. Suffice it to say though that my family has taken your post as a personal insult, and my family has sacrificed more for this country than most.-John

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>Exactly. But that leaves us nav pilot types further away from>'as real as it gets'>>It worries me for what might be looked at next on the>government hit list though.>>EdIt will still be 'as real as it gets' - just not a close to reality as you would like.Andy b

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Terrorists do not need to blow things up. The best form of terrorism is the threat of it. Over the top reaction to it by government agencies plays into the terrorists hands and creates far greater economic and civil disruption than a bomb blast or two.Andy b

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"Not caring" is exactly what the Government is counting on... You may not care.. but there are those who do. If we don't voice our opinion, then we get what we deserve.

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Heck, if ole Uncle Sammy things that by restricting NAVDATA away from the public domain to pay-per-view, I am sad to say that Uncle Sammy has finally gone over the edge. It's a good thing that terrorists will never find out how to go to www.jeppessen.com and order them...WHOOPS, was that information classified?While we're banning NAVDATA because terrorists are undoubtedly holed up in some airport hanger in Carabou, Maine huddled over a pirated copy of MSFS and practicing how to fly arc approaches in CAT IIIc on the 767PIC, lets keep the trend going, here is my list of mandatory actions that MUST be taken by our government so that we will always be safe:1. Let's ban the general public from learning how to fly just in case another terrorist gets in there. At the same time, let's revoke all pilot's licenses and only issue them to Top Secret cleared and verified members of the Department of Defense!2. Let's ban MAPQUEST so terrorists can't find their way around the United States, at the same time making it illegal to own a paper road map.3. Let's ban GPS navigation so terrorists never know exactly where they are.4. Let's ban all commerical air traffic so that terrorists can never hijack one again. It should be mandatory that all private citizens travel by foot only. Failure to do so should be a capitol offense punishable by 50 years of forced labor at the Department of Defence.5. Let's ban boats, cars, bicycles, skateboards, mopeds and roller skates just in case terrorists are using them in some type of twisted plot to over throw the government by crashing them into buildings.6. Let's ban all personal freedom and privacy (Patriot Act - whoops, nevermind, they beat me to it), and inject all people within American borders with tracking devices that explode if they try are found with accurate NAVDATA.7. Let's round up all foreigners and non-employees of the DoD (and evil American's with accurate NAVDATA) and put them in concentration camps so that they can never again endanger our precious way of life...which by the way is already endangered; NOT by any terrorists, but by OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!As a United States Government employee working in the intelligence community (Clay, keep quiet!) this is action is SHAMEFUL and a total and ABSOLUTE WASTE OF TIME!!!!Rant over, time to build my bomb shelter.Mike T. :-roll

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