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Guest vas_yan

DoD Announces Intent to Cease Distribution of Nav Data

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Hey Gang,Just trying to get my head around this one....!!According to the announcement (Latest News - AVSIM home page etc) NAVDATA won't be available (publicly) after Oct 05. Does this mean effectively our SID/STAR data etc in, for example PMDG737 becomes stuck in a time warp from there on in ?Surely this will also effect future programming etc.Call me sceptical - but this could be the start of many further far reaching changes to effect the flying industry as a whole. Where will FS9 go after here ? Will it fall foul also to this type of sweeping decision ?Thought provoking stuff me thinks to say the least.Anyone else want to cast their thoughts on this ?Yours Concerned......Eddy:-roll

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What will happen is that only the current SIDSTARS will be availible from here on out. Any updates to it will not be given out by the USGov anymore.

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Exactly. But that leaves us nav pilot types further away from 'as real as it gets'It worries me for what might be looked at next on the government hit list though.Ed

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Hello All,Well, I think we've reached the point where the US Govt, has come to the understanding that our good terrorist of the world are using our own information, which has been so freely available under the 'freedom of information act', against us. I'm not sure how they would use this data, however, certain individuals in the DoD have made that decision and it obviously will stand.On the point of a time warp, well, I don't believe it will kill any of us FSimmers, but I would say its best now to get the info while we sttil can. I am dead sure that we, as simmers are the LAST group of individuals they even considered would be affected by this move, nor did they care . . . such is life and we are stuck with it.Face it guys and gals, with the problems of the world being influenced by terrorist org's, it IS high time that EVERY govt in the world tightens down on some information. I am a firm believer that there is SOME information that the public just doesn't have a right to know. I doubt if this is one of them, but it doesn't seem to matter, the hammer has struck the anvil and so be it.Expect to see this in other arena's also, or just give the world up to the radical fanatics who want to destroy freedom and decorum for everyone -- I do know this, having many friends in the US Intelligence community, with the new director of the CIA and such, there will be many changes in our policies in months to come. Not wishing to insult anyone, so no flames please, but we are about to see that the nations who view us as the 'Ugly Americans', will be told to go fend for themselves and just leave us alone . . .and if they don't, the harsh realities of our violent world may come to pass.Certain individuals in the US govt have had it up to their eyebrows with nations who with one arm hold out their hands for free this and that, and with the other, carry a sign saying "Yankee Go Home". Well, they may, perhaps get their wish . . . we just may take our football and go play in another arena. Sometimes it is wise to be careful of what you wish for. Also, I do believe that it is time for the USA to take care of it's own problems . . . we have more than enough here at home to keep us busy for quite awhile.Again, please no flames, but this seems to be the beginning of Americans taking care of Americans, and I for one, am totally in favor of it, no matter if it does hamper my FS ability. To those countries who have stood by us in even the darkest of times, we have always remembered our friends and will continue to do so . . . that's what being an American is all about. To all my friends around the world who really know me, understand that I am as loyal as a farmers coon dog . . . those who stand with me, I will be at their back, those who refuse, well, guess you have to fend for yourself. Nothing personal here . . . I guess it is just what this world is coming to, and it doesn't have to be this way . . . unfortunately, it has gotten to that point.Best to all . . .peace is obtainable, but it is a costly commodity.Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

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The FS9 sky is not falling and I'm sure that we'll all do just fine. I'm all for "as real as it gets" but I don't care if I've all the "real" sids and stars, I'll make up my own if I have too. If the FS world "froze" right now in terms of "accurate" ILS frequencies or runway alignment or whatever, guess what.........I could fly VERY happily with FS9 ro FS10 or FS11 for the rest of my natural flight simming life!Cheers!!!Randy Jura, KPDX

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Hey - me too.I understand there is a need to stop terrorism, and I take on board Claytons thoughts too. But, I feel concerned, that they are happy to remove this sort of data, there is probably a good chance that our fantastic sim (and lets face it - it is fast becoming a very good training device, approved or not) will come under scrutiny again.Just my thoughts....Happy Flyin (whatever)Ed :-hmmm

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Hey - me too.I understand there is a need to stop terrorism, and I take on board Claytons thoughts too. But, I feel concerned, that they are happy to remove this sort of data, there is probably a good chance that our fantastic sim (and lets face it - it is fast becoming a very good training device, approved or not) will come under scrutiny again.Just my thoughts....Happy Flyin (whatever)Ed :-abduct

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Clay,Of course I understand the need to stop terrorism and secure the homeland, however things such as this I don't believe are accomplishing that goal at all. I don't believe the goverment should have a blank check to take whatever they want away from the people in the name of stopping terrorism. Of course they shouldn't have blueprints for our nuclear reactor cooling systems or the floorplan of a missile silo online, but what could a terrorist possibly do with raw aeronautical navdata? (or even processed navdata for that matter)It's thought that the 9/11 hijackers used handheld GPSs and a very very basic knowlege of the 757/767's MCP autoflight controls to find their way back to NY and DC. They weren't whipping out the free goverment charts off the Internet and flying radials and they certainly weren't setting up FMC legs by entering in navdata!I'd be much much more inclined to believe that this actually has more to do with the whole Jeppesen situation than with preventing terrorism - that's just a convenient excuse at this point: remember the closing of Meigs in Chicago? The goverment there tried to say that was about stopping 9/11 style attacks on downtown Chicago, but it was really about the mayor pulling a power play to sieze the land for a park he wanted to build.

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terrorist organizations do not use this information.why?this information is available from literally hundreds of sources. The minimal cost of obtaining this information to a group who would do us harm is insignificant. I will go one further, this information is usless.When a truck was used to blow up the trade centers, were road atlases confined to a narrow and specific user group?If one spends just a few seconds more in thinking about this, they will come to realize it is what almost all measures we see today are...simply mass scare tactic.too bad actually, I only hope my children will grow up in a better situation then we have now, and will for some time I am afraid.

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".....but we are about to see that the nations who view us as the 'Ugly Americans', will be told to go fend for themselves and just leave us alone . . .and if they don't, the harsh realities of our violent world may come to pass.Certain individuals in the US govt have had it up to their eyebrows with nations who with one arm hold out their hands for free this and that, and with the other, carry a sign saying "Yankee Go Home". Well, they may, perhaps get their wish . . . we just may take our football and go play in another arena. Sometimes it is wise to be careful of what you wish for. Also, I do believe that it is time for the USA to take care of it's own problems . . . we have more than enough here at home to keep us busy for quite awhile."Clay, I respect you a lot, but having found my wife outside of this country, I am really disappointed with your remarks. I thought this thread was about distribution of Nav Data--not the perceptions of America abroad or some perceived need for "Americans to take care of Americans".But since you raise the issue, let me speak on the subject--having been an American abroad (and I'm sure you served abroad--I'm just noting that in case some here don't know I've been abroad as well).My father was among the first generation in my family to be born here. He worked as a government employee for 50 years--volunteered during WWII, returned to Korea and then worked the remainder of his career building the nuclear program for both the Navy and the civilian government. He welcomed my wife into the family with the most open of arms. Never once did he apply the litmus test of how friendly her government was towards the U.S. At best, her government would be that old term of "non-aligned".My Godfather (God rest his soul) was Cuban--a good friend of my wife's family, a very religious man. Never once did I hear him complain about the 40+ year embargo against his country. He figured it was just a battle among politicians, and lived in the conditions the embargo helps perpetuate. He was the most non-political person I ever knew, but I know were one to think of Cuba, one would assume they all want to see us turn back into shrubland.To be frank, I feel it's posts like this that perpetuate "Ugly Americans". Don't you think countries abroad pay a price for the pittance of aid we provide? 90 pct of the things we own are made by people earning pennies an hour. Those people (those that are allowed to know of such things) can't understand comments like "Americans taking care of Americans". They take care of us, and we turn a blind eye to the conditions they work under.Anyway, I should quit now. Suffice it to say though that my family has taken your post as a personal insult, and my family has sacrificed more for this country than most.-John

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>Exactly. But that leaves us nav pilot types further away from>'as real as it gets'>>It worries me for what might be looked at next on the>government hit list though.>>EdIt will still be 'as real as it gets' - just not a close to reality as you would like.Andy b

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Terrorists do not need to blow things up. The best form of terrorism is the threat of it. Over the top reaction to it by government agencies plays into the terrorists hands and creates far greater economic and civil disruption than a bomb blast or two.Andy b

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"Not caring" is exactly what the Government is counting on... You may not care.. but there are those who do. If we don't voice our opinion, then we get what we deserve.

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Heck, if ole Uncle Sammy things that by restricting NAVDATA away from the public domain to pay-per-view, I am sad to say that Uncle Sammy has finally gone over the edge. It's a good thing that terrorists will never find out how to go to www.jeppessen.com and order them...WHOOPS, was that information classified?While we're banning NAVDATA because terrorists are undoubtedly holed up in some airport hanger in Carabou, Maine huddled over a pirated copy of MSFS and practicing how to fly arc approaches in CAT IIIc on the 767PIC, lets keep the trend going, here is my list of mandatory actions that MUST be taken by our government so that we will always be safe:1. Let's ban the general public from learning how to fly just in case another terrorist gets in there. At the same time, let's revoke all pilot's licenses and only issue them to Top Secret cleared and verified members of the Department of Defense!2. Let's ban MAPQUEST so terrorists can't find their way around the United States, at the same time making it illegal to own a paper road map.3. Let's ban GPS navigation so terrorists never know exactly where they are.4. Let's ban all commerical air traffic so that terrorists can never hijack one again. It should be mandatory that all private citizens travel by foot only. Failure to do so should be a capitol offense punishable by 50 years of forced labor at the Department of Defence.5. Let's ban boats, cars, bicycles, skateboards, mopeds and roller skates just in case terrorists are using them in some type of twisted plot to over throw the government by crashing them into buildings.6. Let's ban all personal freedom and privacy (Patriot Act - whoops, nevermind, they beat me to it), and inject all people within American borders with tracking devices that explode if they try are found with accurate NAVDATA.7. Let's round up all foreigners and non-employees of the DoD (and evil American's with accurate NAVDATA) and put them in concentration camps so that they can never again endanger our precious way of life...which by the way is already endangered; NOT by any terrorists, but by OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!As a United States Government employee working in the intelligence community (Clay, keep quiet!) this is action is SHAMEFUL and a total and ABSOLUTE WASTE OF TIME!!!!Rant over, time to build my bomb shelter.Mike T. :-roll

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John,I am a second generation American myself . . .so I DO understand what you are talking about. And, perhaps I didn't get my post across the right way. We have friends all over the world, and we have some, that really arn't our friends, unless we are doing something for them.I think the situation in Cuba, for example is just plain stupid. Our government needs to reach down, grab hold of their ears and pull their heads out of their butts on that one . . . and probably a good deal more. Cuba is no more of a threat to the US than I or you are.At the same time, I really do believe that we need to take a good look at our country and start doing more for OUR people. i don't wish to offend anyone, thats' just my opinion, for what it is worth.Mostly, I was just stateing information which I have been hearing from friends in the govt and Intelligence community for the past months. Good, bad or indifferent, it is going to come to pass that way I do believe.In the long run, what man does to his fellow man when he gets 'mean' is beyound any horror story Steven King could write . . . but it is a fact that certain individuals in this world, just don't care for anyone but themselves. The school bombing in Russia, 911, the Sudan, just about any where you can think of, we as humans are destroying ourselves . . . makes me think the 'Big Guy' upstairs is shaking his head and wondering if this wasn't such a good idea afterall.John, in essence, I really DO agree with you, and I also respect your opinions . . . wouldn't it be grand if the world could perhaps listen to calm minds and just be nice? With all my respect for you and yours,Clay http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

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Dear Mike,I see you have survived Thanksgiving ... LOL and I'll keep quiet , I love you dearly, my friend. And although what I have written in the above is most correct in case in point, I too do believe that this particular action is absolutely STUPID.Yep, there will be an internal memo to you, Sir on your releasing classified data on Jepps charts monday morning . . .I suggest you call in sick. ROTFLMAOOh, and while you're at it, fella, give me a call, duh! Friends and neighbors, Mike is one of our 'good' govt. employees who actually has he head screwed on straight and knows the score . . . and if it wasn't so sad, laughs at what our great protectors do.I believe in security, I believe in taking care of one's own, I also believe in taking care of our friends and some that arn't normally so friendly, and I believe that stupid govt actions cause much more harm than good in the long run . . . and this navdata crap is one of them.So, you see, guys, I really am on OUR side, I'm a simmer too, ya know.Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

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But no one here has yet answered the question: How on earth is restricting NAVDATA going to hinder terrorists if they want to attack? As someone who lives in New York City and was here on 9?11, I have to say that this really does not make me feel safer. Quite the opposite, it actually makes me feel less safe, because I now realise that we may actually have a bunch of village idiots running the show. God, Budda, Allah, Jehovah, Little green men from Mars........... Help us all!!!!!

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>Won't effect me in the slightest... Don't use it now, so>won't miss it. :)>:-outta>http://publish.hometown.aol.com/p3superb/i...s/sign_name.jpg>>There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".>- unknown>"My daddy gives me up, to fight for you">- a US Military Members ChildSo then why did you respond? I'm sure there's a few things you use that I wouldn't miss either :-roll

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>>Won't effect me in the slightest... Don't use it now, so>>won't miss it. :)>>:-outta>>http://publish.hometown.aol.com/p3superb/i...s/sign_name.jpg>>>>There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".>>- unknown>>"My daddy gives me up, to fight for you">>- a US Military Members Child>>>So then why did you respond? I'm sure there's a few things>you use that I wouldn't miss either :-roll Then why did YOU even respond?

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It won't, but hey if you are a Colonel and want to make General, it is IMPERATIVE that you send at least one memo with the most stupid idea imaginable so that you can earn the respect of the other Generals who got there by submitting their own stupid ideas.I can see it now as you walk through a dark alley, a shady guy approaches you and says: *pssssst* hey you; YEAH, you. I got what you want right here, man. I got Sectionals, I got Approach Plates, I got Airway charts, hell I even got Airport Diagrams. And this ain't the cheap stuff neither, this stuff is the latest AIRAC cycle! How much you wanna buy?-or-BREAKING NEWS AT 11: This is Juanita Gomez live at Los Angeles International Airport; the Unites States Custom Service, in a joint sting operation with the FBI and DEA, have ceased the largest shipment of Aeronautial Charts in U.S. history! 85 people have been arrested and have been linked with Columbian NAVDATA cartels and the dreaded so-called Jeppesen Mafia. It is reported that the charts were hidden inside barrels of pickles to throw the NAVDATA sniffing dogs off the scent. Street value of the aeronautical charts, which included the highly illegal and deadly New York Sectional, is estimated to be over $1 billion dollars. General Ima Poophead from the Department of Defense commented that: "In no uncertain terms, we see this as a victory in our war on navdata. This operation will seriously hinder the capability of flight simulation enthusiasts all across the United States to fly in any realistic way and makes sure that it never falls into the hands of children who might have learned something." In other news, another terrorist attack occured tonight in major cities across the U.S. No government officials were available for comment as they were all busy confiscating NAVDATA. Over to you Bob.*sigh*Mike T.

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As a real world very low time pilot, I would like to hear the thoughts of some pro pilots on this. I can't believe that AOPA will allow them to do this.It sounds to me like the industry finally got an excuse to complain to the Bush people to restrict access to the data so they can make even more money off of it. This action will not in any way shape or form restrict anybody's access to this data. It is required data for flying, and will be accessible in some way to anybody who has to fly, and therefore, anybody who really wants it will be able to get it no problem whatsoever.I ONLY believe that there is an economic reason for this. Perhaps the DOD is trying to save money, but as far as I am concerned, it is far more likely the industry requested and got what they wanted, and our government is using a lie once again to get us to comply. No, I do not believe our government is being run by idiots, except perhaps that they believe they can lie to us and we will believe them.I think there will be a fight. While it is true this will benefit a few people, it is also true that a lot of money has been spent and organizations created to make this data available, and as it is necessary to fly by, I predict there will be a big stink over it.Ultimately, this is an issue of safety, and it is the government's job to provide safe skies to all pilots. I don't know why the DOD was involved in the first place (why isn't it being provided by the FAA?), I suppose it was thought to be the best way to pay for it at the time. Perhaps this is just the result of a fight between the FAA and the DOD, and the DOD is just flexing its muscles to get the FAA to take over the function.Thomas Perry

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This is an unretouched transcript of the actual conversion that lead to this monumental political insight:Congressman: What's NAVDATA? General: It's how airplanes navigate.Congressman: Is it poisonous?General: No.Congressman: Is it a weapon of mass destruction?General: Ummm, no- Sir, I... Congressman: Does it have any ties to Osama Bin Laden?General: No, sir, none that we know of.Congressman: That sounds dangerous! Why wasn't I notified?General: Sir, it's been around forever. Harmless really.Congressman: Harmless as Ted Kennedy with a fifth of scotch! Attack it immediately! General: Attack what Sir? The NAVDATA? It's a bunch of maps essentially. Actually we make it. We, the government. We get the data, and we print it, and we publish on the internet.Congressman: We PUBLISH ON THE INTERNET!? You don't mean the internet right? You mean the other internet. The one Al Gore invented. That one has some good porn. Did I say that outloud? Somebody get me a towel.General: Sir- There are people in the room. Can you please put that away? I think the Chinese Ambassador is becoming horrified.Congressman: Sorry. Had a flashback. Frisco- '69. Anyway, I will not jeopardize the security of this great nation for the sake of a few airplanes! I want NAVDATA gone! All of it! General: Sir? We need the data to navigate. Without it, nobody would know where they were going. Not even us. And quite fran...Congressman: Do it! And now! Those Navdatians will never know what hit them. Not even the purple ones! I like meat pancakes! Do I smell monkeys?General: Mr. Ambassador. How was your flight?Anyway, I don't think it will ruin my simming. At least all my addons will have the same cycle (trying to think positive)

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>It sounds to me like the industry finally got an excuse to>complain to the Bush people to restrict access to the data so>they can make even more money off of it. This action will not>in any way shape or form restrict anybody's access to this>data. It is required data for flying, and will be accessible>in some way to anybody who has to fly, and therefore, anybody>who really wants it will be able to get it no problem>whatsoever.Thomas, you and I may be the only ones who read the entire article, including the third column.Foremost among the "secondary reasons" for this restriction was that of protecting the financial interests of those foreign governments and private publishers who stand to gain from this draconian and idiotic restriction of public information... :-roll

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