theskyisthelimit

World2XP overlays vs Ortho Overlays, disabling roads, and other ortho4xp questions

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Still a relative newbie to both XP and ortho but getting there.. i had a few questions on autogen/overlays and ortho.. particularly with using World2XP (w2xp) overlays, which i'm just now discovering..

 

Its my understanding that W2XP america isnt as good as the ortho overlay set until the new version comes out.. 

 

Despite this i decided to test it out..

 

I basically made sure i had the required libraries and world_models folders in the custom scenery..

 

Questions:

 

Is it ok to have both ortho4xp overlays and the w2xp ones active in custom scenery at the same time, i guess with w2xp at a higher level or maybe in the case of america, under the ortho overlay folder?  Any reason to not do this?

 

 

I basically have this..  I believe this order and things included are correct but just double checking that i'm not missing a w2xp requirement.

 

airports

misc scenery

flags_USA_states

ruscenery  (forget if this is a library, if so it can go under overlays i think)

global airports

**world-models

**w2xp_america   (and/or others like Europe etc)

**yOrtho4XP_overlays

3D_people_library
MisterX_Library
NAPS_library
OpenSceneryX
R2_Library
RD_Library
ff_library
The_Handy_Objects_Library

ZOrtho4XP_xxxyyy

zzz_hd_global_scenery3            (hd mesh v3)

zzz_treelines_farms_north_america_v2 

 

 

Also, it was mentioned it was possible to edit data to remove roads and cars somehow.. i assume maybe thats done with the w2xp application interface, unsure.. i was thinking of tinkering with that to help increase performance in VR.

 

 

On the subject of Ortho.. how do you know which zoom level the scenery you have on the hard drive is, after you have already downloaded it all.. basically if i want to have one version of a square area that is ZL16 and another that is ZL17 how do you toggle between the two (best practice here?).. i'm guessing manual junction points should be used and renaming the ortho tile folders with ZL16 or 17 at the end would be the best trick.. then apps like XaddonManager can be used to enable/disable between 16/17 etc.. just curious..

 

In my brief comparisons of ZL16 and ZL17 for closer to the ground tests, you can definitely see a difference.. the 16's are often almost blurry up close.. clearly why many recommend just using zl16 for areas that will be flown over at greater altitude.. however, i'm lazy and dont really think ill ultimate have a mixture of both, provided i have the hdd space :)

 

Can anyone give some input on any of this.. 

 

Many thanks.

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I have a similar question, Tony mentioned in another thread that the default buildings, etc. look better than the W2XP models for the Americas.  So if I have built the overlays (yOrtho4XP_overlays) over orthophoto scenery using Ortho4XP and I delete or move the W2XP folders (world-models and w2xp_america) out of my custom scenery folder, will it then default to using the stock XP models?

 

It is my newbie understanding that the overlay file defines the position and type of buildings, roads, water etc that should be placed on the orthophoto and W2XP just uses those pointers to replace the model with one of its own versus the default model.

 

I hope this is clear.

 

Thanks.

 

Jim

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Also, it was mentioned it was possible to edit data to remove roads and cars somehow.. i assume maybe thats done with the w2xp application interface, unsure.. i was thinking of tinkering with that to help increase performance in VR.

 

For my own sceneries that I use, I generate them using W2XP or my other tools without roads, I get such a big performance boost from not having them that it's worth the effort. At some point, I hope they put an option in the GUI for XP11 to turn off the roads.

 

Also, if you're using Ortho4XP, then you can mix and match zoom levels on the same tile, e.g. ZL18 around airports, ZL17 in cities and ZL16 everywhere else. It's a great combination and saves lots of disk-space. Once you're flying at 2000ft the difference between 16 and 17 is negligible.

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For Ortho tiles, I would really like to see XP has an option that turns of autogen roads but keep those cars. These cars should appear to be running on the photo roads and it can look really nice if zoom levels are right.  

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For my own sceneries that I use, I generate them using W2XP or my other tools without roads

 

Coincidentally, I just tried this today, figuring out that having an overlay from XP on the photoscenery and at the same time the w2xp data with roads would make no sense. However, when I generated a w2xp scenery disabling the roads XP crashed upon loading. Tried this with different pbf files and different locations. Maybe one of the settings in the config file was wrong, but which one?

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For my own sceneries that I use, I generate them using W2XP or my other tools without roads, I get such a big performance boost from not having them that it's worth the effort. At some point, I hope they put an option in the GUI for XP11 to turn off the roads.

 

Also, if you're using Ortho4XP, then you can mix and match zoom levels on the same tile, e.g. ZL18 around airports, ZL17 in cities and ZL16 everywhere else. It's a great combination and saves lots of disk-space. Once you're flying at 2000ft the difference between 16 and 17 is negligible.

How are you mixing them in the same tile exactly.. i had presumed when you do the ZL17 download for a square tile that was it.. ZL17 for the whole square..

Coincidentally, I just tried this today, figuring out that having an overlay from XP on the photoscenery and at the same time the w2xp data with roads would make no sense. However, when I generated a w2xp scenery disabling the roads XP crashed upon loading. Tried this with different pbf files and different locations. Maybe one of the settings in the config file was wrong, but which one?

Is this "generating w2xp scenery and disabling roads" being done within the w2xp app itself somehow.. do you select a tile and then check off some boxes to make this change and regenerate the tile, or how does this work?

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For Ortho tiles, I would really like to see XP has an option that turns of autogen roads but keep those cars. These cars should appear to be running on the photo roads and it can look really nice if zoom levels are right.  

 

For sure, I've been removing my overlay folder just because it kills the look during the day, and move it back for a night flight.

It would be a beautiful thing to have at least car traffic for sure. 

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How are you mixing them in the same tile exactly.. i had presumed when you do the ZL17 download for a square tile that was it.. ZL17 for the whole square..

 

In Ortho4XP there is a "Choose Custom Zoomlevel" button, click on that and you can draw out areas where you want a higher zoom (or even a different provider). Also, open Ortho4XP.cfg in a text editor and there is an option in there to automatically create ZL18 around airports.

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Anyone have an idea on how many TB it would take at zl17 with 18 at cities and airports?(no oceans obviously)

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Look at this post by Murmur: http://www.avsim.com/topic/492465-aerofly-fs-2-update-thread/?p=3550416

 

"Just for fun, I made an approximate calculation of how much disk space is needed to have the whole world at various zoom levels (just land, no sea/oceans):

 

ZL19     0.3 m/pixel     2200    TB

ZL18     0.6 m/pixel       550    TB

ZL17     1.2 m/pixel       137    TB

ZL16     2.4 m/pixel         34    TB

ZL15     4.8 m/pixel           8.5 TB

ZL14     9.5 m/pixel           2.1 TB

ZL13   19.1 m/pixel       550    GB

ZL12   38.1 m/pixel       140    GB"

 

So it looks like that ZL17 for the whole world is pretty much out of reach to most people. 

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Cool numbers. Still looking doable for me. Hardly anyone is flying the whole world. But let's assume someone wants Europe and the US/Canada and maybe Australia, another one needs all of Asia and Africa and another one all of North and South America. All these combinations are doable for sure in ZL16 with major towns and cities in ZL 17 and also all in ZL 17 if you are willing to buy a few big disks and sometimes swap them. 

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I just prepared 4.5TB drive space exclusively for making Ortho tiles. I plan to stick with ZL18 for couple hundred tiles.

 

137TB is technically pretty easy to do as a home server if you're willing to buy 20 x 8TB disks. My current unRaid server at home can easily do 11x8TB. 

 

But ZL17 for the whole world also means you'll have to download ~30-40TB of photos from Bing or whatever server. I guess the download process will get busted before it completes..   

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I just prepared 4.5TB drive space exclusively for making Ortho tiles. I plan to stick with ZL18 for couple hundred tiles.

 

137TB is technically pretty easy to do as a home server if you're willing to buy 20 x 8TB disks. My current unRaid server at home can easily do 11x8TB. 

 

But ZL17 for the whole world also means you'll have to download ~30-40TB of photos from Bing or whatever server. I guess the download process will get busted before it completes..   

I have around 60TB in my FlexRaid archival/media server, over about 8 disks or so.. so yeah very doable.. just had no intentions of going that big for a flight sim workstation haha..

 

For now i'm going to see what combinations i can fit on an 8TB single drive.  I bet if we chop out the north and south poles and other large wastelands the numbers can come down :)

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A 60TB server sounds great. How do you like FlexRaid? I started with unRAID and like it. But always wondering if some else is better. 

 

Chopping out north and south poles are a great idea. 

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For Ortho tiles, I would really like to see XP has an option that turns of autogen roads but keep those cars. These cars should appear to be running on the photo roads and it can look really nice if zoom levels are right. 

 

It would be inefficient coding to have the cars doing their own placement and navigation separate from the roads, so I suspect they're generated as a top layer on the roads and can't be separated.

 

What might work, is if you could figure out a way to make the roads invisible, leaving the cars visible. That obviously wouldn't help the frame rate, and you might also lose the street lights that are partly responsible for the great look of X-Plane at night. 

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A 60TB server sounds great. How do you like FlexRaid? I started with unRAID and like it. But always wondering if some else is better. 

 

Chopping out north and south poles are a great idea. 

Flex Raid works well.. though i havent had to do a restore for any reason yet.. knock on wood.. basically treats each drive as independent drives, then you add as many data protection drives as you want (i think i may have 7 or 8 data and 2-3 protection drives, i forget).. i looked at switching to unraid, but it seemed like flexraid did as much as i needed to do for now.. and only one drive at a time usually gets hit with transfers/usage when viewing movies/shows/home archives etc, so the single drive performance of flex raid is ok for this purpose.  even two hits at once would be ok.

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I know XP11 cars can run without roads showing up. I once recorded a flight on ZL19 Ortho tiles and when I fast farwarded to the end of the replay, XP11 had to reload phostoimages and all the autogens. During that process, for quite a few seconds, I saw cars appeared before autogen roads and they ran normally on those detailed photograpic roads. The scene looks really nice and felt so real.

 

Then the autogen roads popped up and pretty much ruined it... 

 

Making autogen roads invisible may still have one problem, as XP11 seems to tend to build elevated highways everywhere it goes. By just making autogen roads invisible those cars may appear running afloat above most of the photo roads. But still I'll take that.  


Flex Raid works well.. though i havent had to do a restore for any reason yet.. knock on wood.. basically treats each drive as independent drives, then you add as many data protection drives as you want (i think i may have 7 or 8 data and 2-3 protection drives, i forget).. i looked at switching to unraid, but it seemed like flexraid did as much as i needed to do for now.. and only one drive at a time usually gets hit with transfers/usage when viewing movies/shows/home archives etc, so the single drive performance of flex raid is ok for this purpose.  even two hits at once would be ok.

 

Sounds very similar to unRAID. The thing I like most about unRAID is also that I can directly manipulate each data drives. I hate the idea that everytime I fetch a file all the disks must spin up for that operation.

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I started doing some more testing and comparisons with ortho.. i did one comparison of bing and usa2.. i personally thought the bing one was better (darker, better contrast).. i guess this will vary from location to location.. i also did some comparisons in this same area (san fran) related to buildings.. default overlay vs misterx vs the import of us cities x i did (which has a few floating buildings not really visible in this comparison)..

 

How is everyone dealing with comparing two providers?  Do you just stick with one then if you think it looks off, try another and compare manually, seems tedious.. also.. how about comparing after downloading.. is it enough to just select the square and change the provider, then hit the batch build again (i assume if both are already downloaded it just swaps out the textures from one provider to the other, or would this mix it?).. i've been renaming and unlinking say the bing folder for a tile, then going to the map, changing providers.. and redoing the batch build.. then linking it back to custom scenery and comparing.. which feels tedious.

 

here are the shots (animations).. the ZL17 vs ZL18 wasnt much different, i did another ZL17 vs 16 compare before which did appear more fuzzy at 16, probably depends on source/area etc.

sanfranani2.gif

 

sanfranani1.gif

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I came across this article:  http://blogs.bing.com/search/2011/06/24/bing-maps-unveils-exclusive-high-res-imagery-with-global-ortho-project/

 

Pay attention to the second to the last paragraph.  :smile:

Nice, +1 to bing then.

 

On the subject of ZL17 or ZL18 being applied around airports automatically by changing the cfg file..

 

are these the entries for that?

 

cover_airports_with_highres=True  (changed to True)  
cover_zl=18
 
Just double checking

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Making autogen roads invisible may still have one problem, as XP11 seems to tend to build elevated highways everywhere it goes. By just making autogen roads invisible those cars may appear running afloat above most of the photo roads. But still I'll take that.  

 

Yep I got this to work by making the road textures transparent, but the issue was the bridges, they are actual 3D models and the road texture ends up black.

 

For my Poland scenery I generated one road type for the entire country without bridges and the cars drive nicely on the photoscenery, but bridges don't work and they drive across the water.

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Hey, I'll take that cars drive across water thing as long as I get those cars driving nicely on the photoscenery roads... 

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are these the entries for that?
 
cover_airports_with_highres=True  (changed to True)  
cover_zl=18

 

Yes, and the airport polygon has to exist in OpenStreetMap, if it doesn't it's quite easy to add.

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Yes, and the airport polygon has to exist in OpenStreetMap, if it doesn't it's quite easy to add.

Does that portion only download OpenStreetMap.. i take it if you have it set to say Bing, the airport part gets pulled from OSM? And how do you know if it exists?  Preview screen shows something or another place?  I guess this isnt quite one click and done then, hit or miss if you dont check before hand?

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Sometimes no objects and roads are good, a was getting 70-80fps here  :smile: 

image.jpg

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