RealTrim

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

>>because as speed builds constantly upon leveling off, so too does the >>need for trim.The usual procedure when leveling out is accelerate to cruise speed, power back and then and only then trim. When VFR it is sometimes best to keep your eyes out of the window powerback and trim on feel and sound, then head down to make the small quick adjustment of power and then re-trim if required - I don't think this works well with turbocharged engines due to the latency. Constantly trimming off the stick force is uneccessary and hard work. Proper technique relegates trimming to a nothing task, don't even think about it. When current on type, usually one quick swift movement of the wheel and the aircraft is trimmed.The two acronyms used to teach PPL are PAT and APT:1) When initiating a climb or recovering from a descent: PAT - Power, Attitude and then Trim2) When leveling off after a climb: APT - Attitude, Power and then Trim.

[Tabs 2,790]

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding what this does: (I haven't tried it yet but will in a bit)This is how I read it:1. You pull up to say 10 degrees nose high2. You hold down a button/key that activates the trim function3. You release the stick/yoke back to its center position4. RealTrim adds the exact correct amount of trim rather than trying to find it using the regular FS series of digital trim presses.This isn't autotrim ala what the EZ FBW app does - you're just changing the mechanism of trimming from using the FS button/key presses to pressing the RealTrim button and then releasing pressure on the elevator. I do see how this is closer to what you do in a real plane - real trim relieves stick pressure, you don't return it to neutral and THEN use trim, the trim creates a NEW neutral position. The CH Yoke doesn't hold position when you trim, it returns to center just like a joystick.

[Guest allcott]

>Bob,>>>But what we are talking about is the premise that this makes>>FS9 more like the real thing and in fact it does the>>opposite.>>oh, ok, i guess i missed your point - i might have been>responding to a different post of yours about bringing along a>parachute :)>>>When I flew this 29 million dollar Training simulator ...>>you set the pitch with the yoke, you adjusted trim >>which allowed you to release either forward or back >>pressure on the yoke >>it sounds like you're describing a setup where the yoke>actually stays in the same position when you trim away>the back/forward pressure. If that's so (i hope one gets>that for $29 million) then yes, it behaves exactly like >a real-airplane and I do the same in the real-world.>>>that is the way my Ch Yoke and FS9 is set up>>that's what i don't understand - when you pull on the CH>Yoke and then trim backwards with your trim buttons,>doesn't the yoke still want to return forward again? Mabye>that's where CH Yoke and joysticks differ?>>In the 'normal' case of a return-to-center joystick/yoke>you can't trim like in real-life. Here I have to move the>stick forward and trim backwards at the same time ...>that's different from real-life and the 29 mio simulator>(I hope).>>So that's where RealTrim comes in as described above >nudging something unrealistic a tad in the direction>of more realistic and easier to do. Trimming in real-life>is really very simple and accurate, right? In FS it's>a pain to hit that sweet-spot between moving the stick>to center and applying enough trimming key-clicks imho>>Cheers>Nils>>>Yes, that's what I don't understand about Bobs post. The FUNDAMENTAL limitation of the CH Yoke is that the re-centring pressure is provided by springs. Springs that are completely independent of the sim. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the device to function as Bob describes unless he has some fancy modifications. The re-centring force of the spring overrides any virtual-world trim control, it is NOT connectd to the sim in any way, shape or form. Using my CH Products yoke, one cannot put the yoke in a position then `trim out the forces - the forces are provided by springs which are not adjusted by the trim controls. You can press all the buttons you like - they don't affect the springs!Perhaps Bob could tell us HOW he has acheived this fantastic adaptation of the CH Prods yoke, as I'd like to incorporate it into mine! Allcott

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

>>Trim does not make the stick stay in a deflected position but rather >>permits the deflected position to be released due to the offsetting >>force resulting from deflection of the trim tab.That is not correct for light aircraft with balance tabs (the most common system). Moving the elevator moves the stick, something that is evident during the Check A! Assume you are in the cruise S&L and trimmed. With hands off the stick, if you trim up, the trim tab moves down, this deflects the elevator up, the stick will move back.The caveats where this may not be the case are where the stick is not directly connected to the elevator: spring/servo tabs, FBW and electro-hydraulic.

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

I think Bob is saying that the CH Yoke behaves the same way as the $29M simulator. Which sounds to me to be correct. The big simultor simulates an aircraft with a huge speed range and probably electro-hyrdaulic actuation of controls. In these cases the trim just changes its datum with in the elevator range and does not affect the stick position.

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Just tried it and excellent stuff! It works very well indeed and is, in operational if not engineering terms, much more realistic (in my most humble of opinions of course).

[Guest bobsk8]

>I think some of you guys are misunderstanding what this does:>(I haven't tried it yet but will in a bit)>>This is how I read it:>>1. You pull up to say 10 degrees nose high>2. You hold down a button/key that activates the trim>function>3. You release the stick/yoke back to its center position>4. RealTrim adds the exact correct amount of trim rather than>trying to find it using the regular FS series of digital trim>presses.>Name any kind of real plane where this can be done, that is , hold a pitch attitude with the yoke, push a button and have the trim automatically ajusted while the yoke returns to it's neutral position, cause I sure can't think of one. In other words, this is about as unrealistic as it gets, in my opinion/>This isn't autotrim ala what the EZ FBW app does - you're just>changing the mechanism of trimming from using the FS>button/key presses to pressing the RealTrim button and then>releasing pressure on the elevator. I do see how this is>closer to what you do in a real plane - real trim relieves>stick pressure, you don't return it to neutral and THEN use>trim, the trim creates a NEW neutral position. >You don't return yoke to neutral and then trim in any kind of plane in MSFS or in real life that I know about. You adjust the yoke for the pitch and airpseed you want and then you move the trim function with either a switch or wheel, depending on the aircraft, a little at a time as you gradually release the pressure you are holding on the yoke to keep your desired airspeed. When the pressure you are holding is zero, you stop adjusting your trim. In all those instances, you are making the trim adjustment, not some automatic button pushing setup.

[Guest bobsk8]

>>Bob,>>>>>But what we are talking about is the premise that this>makes>>>FS9 more like the real thing and in fact it does the>>>opposite.>>>>oh, ok, i guess i missed your point - i might have been>>responding to a different post of yours about bringing along>a>>parachute :)>>>>>When I flew this 29 million dollar Training simulator ...>>>you set the pitch with the yoke, you adjusted trim >>>which allowed you to release either forward or back >>>pressure on the yoke >>>>it sounds like you're describing a setup where the yoke>>actually stays in the same position when you trim away>>the back/forward pressure. If that's so (i hope one gets>>that for $29 million) then yes, it behaves exactly like >>a real-airplane and I do the same in the real-world.>>>>>that is the way my Ch Yoke and FS9 is set up>>>>that's what i don't understand - when you pull on the CH>>Yoke and then trim backwards with your trim buttons,>>doesn't the yoke still want to return forward again? Mabye>>that's where CH Yoke and joysticks differ?>>>>In the 'normal' case of a return-to-center joystick/yoke>>you can't trim like in real-life. Here I have to move the>>stick forward and trim backwards at the same time ...>>that's different from real-life and the 29 mio simulator>>(I hope).>>>>So that's where RealTrim comes in as described above >>nudging something unrealistic a tad in the direction>>of more realistic and easier to do. Trimming in real-life>>is really very simple and accurate, right? In FS it's>>a pain to hit that sweet-spot between moving the stick>>to center and applying enough trimming key-clicks imho>>>>Cheers>>Nils>>>>>>>>Yes, that's what I don't understand about Bobs post. The>FUNDAMENTAL limitation of the CH Yoke is that the re-centring>pressure is provided by springs. Springs that are completely>independent of the sim. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the device to>function as Bob describes unless he has some fancy>modifications. The re-centring force of the spring overrides>any virtual-world trim control, it is NOT connectd to the>sim in any way, shape or form. Using my CH Products>yoke, one cannot put the yoke in a position then `trim out the>forces - the forces are provided by springs which are not>adjusted by the trim controls. You can press all the buttons>you like - they don't affect the springs!>>Perhaps Bob could tell us HOW he has acheived this fantastic>adaptation of the CH Prods yoke, as I'd like to incorporate it>into mine! >>AllcottWhen I fly a real plane, I am not staring at the actual postion of the yoke, and I don't mark the yoke position in millimeters of deflection from mechanical center. I go by how hard I have to push or pull (pressure applied) on the yoke to get and hold the pitch attitude that I want. I am either looking out the window or at the gauges while I am doing this and I couldn't care less about the actual position of the yoke . The same with MSFS and the CH yoke, I don't sit and stare at the yoke shaft trying to figure out if it is exactly centered or is 3 mm out from there or in from that point. (Who cares where it is when I am trying to trim the aircraft). I am instead looking at the airspeed indicator or the Attitude Indicator and moving the yoke to hold the desired position by either holding forward or backward pressure on the yoke. Then I move the trim wheel-switch in the direction that is required so that I can lessen this pressure on the yoke. When I don't have to push or pull on the yoke anymore I stop trimming..... That is the way every real aircraft I have ever flow, as well as all the sims I have ever flown feels and behaves when I trim it. When teaching someone how to fly and trim an aircraft for the first time, you tell them to use back pressure or forward pressure on the yoke and then to use the trim wheel to gradually remove the pressure, which is exactly the way my MSFS behaves. In the descriptions of this new trim program, it says that you adjust your elevator with the yoke for the desired pitch attitude or airspeed , press a button and immediately you recenter the yoke. Now that is unrealistic, as compared to any aircraft or sim I have ever tried.

[Guest nilsca]

Jim> "and move the elevator input. The trim effectiveness is shown>as a number between 0.5 and 1.5. ".>Is that a full stroke, either forwards or backwards? you move the elevator (normally your joystick back/forwards)and check the displayed effectiveness. Forward goes up, backthe number goes down.>you press enter? Any key but escape will confirm the value your 'holding'with the stick. Maybe a slider would be a better choice forentering this :)hope that helpsNils

[Guest nilsca]

Jim,><it's pulled/pushed to and the trim makes it stay there as>you've said - that's the important detail though.>>>Trim does not make the stick stay in a deflected position but>rather permits the deflected position to be released due to>the offsetting force resulting from deflection of the trim>tab.i was describing the 'feelable' effect of the stick notwanting to move back/forward anymore after you trim, you'reabsolutely right that responsible for that is the offsettingforce on the elevatorCheersNils

[KevinAu 441]

>>So that's where RealTrim comes in as described above >nudging something unrealistic a tad in the direction>of more realistic and easier to do. Trimming in real-life>is really very simple and accurate, right? In FS it's>a pain to hit that sweet-spot between moving the stick>to center and applying enough trimming key-clicks imho>>Cheers>NilsEven in real life, an aircraft will never be completely in trim. Hand flown level flight in a well trimmed out aircraft will always be a continuous series of very small nudges on the controls to hold your altitude. What this program sounds like to me is a simplified auto-trim function, akin to what some of the other combat flightsims with more simplified flight models had. I certainly wouldn't call it "RealTrim".However, what you've got here seems to be something that could be used in conjunction with say, the PSS Airbus series add-ons to make those more realistic. As it stands now, at least with my FS2004 PSS A320, I still have to trim that plane out like any other FS plane, when in real life, Airbuses actually have an autotrim function similar to RealTrim. If the program could be modified so that it automatically and immediately trims the plane to hold the current pitch attitude so that the stick can be released the moment you bring the nose attitude to the desired point, it could make FS Airbuses more realistically simulate fly by wire.Maybe if the program was taken a step further and given bank limits also, it could be realistically labelled "Fly by Wire". At the least it could be called "Airbus Trim".

[Guest nilsca]

Hi Kevin>Even in real life, an aircraft will never be completely in>trim ... What this program sounds like to me is a simplified >auto-trim functionI'm totally up for a name change - no problem with that :)BUT RealTrim is not an auto-trim or fly-by-wire system.You use it to simulate moving the trim to release pressurefrom the stick, that's it, there's no pitch attitudehold in it.>If the progra could be modified so that it automatically >and immediately trims the plane to hold the current pitch >attitude I could easily write a module for that as well but it'snot planned for RealTrim since that would be unrealisticfor non fly-by-wire planes like the ones I fly in reallife and sim :)CheersNils

[Guest nilsca]

Hi Bob>I am ... moving the yoke to hold the desired position ...>Then I move the trim wheel-switch in the direction that >is required so that I can lessen this pressure on the >yoke. When I don't have to push or pull on the yoke>anymore I stop trimming.....totally agree, i think we disagree on how the pilotknows when to stop trimming.You're saying you stop trimming when "I don't have topush or pull anymore" and that's when you see thedesired airspeed and pitch looking out of the window.I stop trimming when I feel that there's no pull onthe stick anymore, then continue trimming constantlycheckin the result as you describe accurately (evenwith RealTrim I use the trim keys for slight adjustments of the trim - like in real-life notall trimming has to start with the stick as you've said)Both ways are correct and required but imho you can'tdo the latter in FS. That's what RealTrim is supposedto address.But I think we've been around the block arguing - let'sagree to disagree :) Give it a try sometime though, it'snot magic or a fly-by-ware stop-the-pilot-from-thinkingextension that you might think it is.RegardsNils

[Guest Kingair315]

The biggest problem is the adjustment in the FS for NULL & SENSITIVITIES, if is not set correctly for the control you use or the particular aircraft flown. To set the Null, open a SPOT window, and move in so you can see the surfaces clearly. Move the controls -very- slightly, if surfaces move or if they move w/o even touching the controls, the Null is too -narrow- .Go to the Null settting, and change it a little, and recheck, did they move more more or less? If more, move it in the other direction. Keep doing this, until you can move the control a -hair- or two and the surfaces do not move at all.Again, move the control in one direction until you see a full deflection up or down of the controls.Did you barely move the controls?If so, the sensitivity is set to high. Reduce the sensitivity, until you can move the controls at -least- half way before getting -full- movement of the surface. Personally, I prefer to set it, so FULL movement of the control, gives me FULL movement of the surface... but not all controls can be set that way. When set correctly, you can make specific movements, to make specific maneuvers. Setting them to for full movement when moving stick half way, means faster response, with a full swing of the controls.... Setting them this way also makes for better or easier trimming of the aircraft. You may have to readjust for different aircraft. With the control set to your liking or maximum swing, and a matching movement of the control surface, you can then do airobatic manuevers well. When using Radio Control Models, you set them in this manner. If set to sensitive, you can overcontrol and down comes the aircraft. Much more expensive than losing control in the FS.... If you barely move the controls, and get a huge movement of the controls, it is very easy to OVERCONTROL or even impossibole to control the aircraft. IF using autopilot and you want to switch to handflying, watch the trim knob... If it is way up or down, and you switch the autopilot off, it will be difficult to regain control, even with the controls set correctly. Move your throttle, increase or decrease speed, and watch the trim. You will see it moving to compensate. When you want to handfly, adjust your throttles to center the trim, when you remove the autopilot altitude control, the aircraft barely moves up or down, and you can then increase throttle to climb, or decrease it to desend. TO fly straight and level, adjust the trim until it flies at the altitude you wish. You may have to readjust trim from time to time slightly to keep it at the chosen altitude according to changes in the wind, etc.. By using the trim you should be able to get -ANY- aircraft to fly straight and level, unless there are strong gusty winds. Practice, practice, practice, with a 150,172, or 182, until you can make 25-50 flights without any problem. This experience will then carry over into other aircraft you fly. You may need to individually adjust your controls for -each- aircraft, depending upon the modeling. If you cant fly it by adjusting the controls this way, use a different model of the aircraft. My grandchildren have used a great variety of controls, and following these intructions have been able to adjust all of them so they can manually fly.Bob

[jfri 42]

>The CH Yoke doesn't hold position when you trim, it returns to>center just like a joystick.Is this true for all Yokes available for FS? Or do FF yokes exist for FS? Well if they do I suppose the price would make them uninteresting to consider.