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Guest nilsca

RealTrim

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Guest victorwest

>Hi Guys,> I really like the new RealTrim module by Nils Meier:>>http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID...util&DLID=80304>>It works really nicely on the couple of planes I have tried it>on so far. This was supposed to be only a proof of concept>release, but I don't see how it can be improved...>>Cheers,>>N.I'll have to have a look at it this evening.

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Guest Adverse Yawn

Fantastic! This is something I suggested ages ago, fortunately somebody else with some get and go had the same thought. This will be much more realistic than the rediculous and manic tapping of norm.

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Guest bobsk8

Maybe I am missing something here, but when I adjust the trim on any aircraft, using the CH yoke for instance, I hold the attitude that I want with the yoke and then use a switch on the yoke to gradually move the trim in the correct direction. As I do that, the pressure that I have to hold against the springs on the yoke can be gradually reduced, until such point that I can take my hands off the yoke and the plane is flying at the correct speed for the trim setting I set. This is exactly the way I do it in a real aircraft and is also the way I did it when I had the chance to fly a Major Airline Motion 767-400 simulator. That $29,000,000 Boeing sim was set up the same way, with trim switches on the yoke, and I used the procedure that I described above just like I do every time I fly FS9 at home. What is supposed to be the advantage of this add-on, other than to make it less realistic?

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Sounds the same as what I do, except I have to use 2 buttons on my X52 because my wife thinks a CH yoke takes up too much room :-( I'll have see what this add-ons all about though :-)Dreamfleet Project ManagerGreatest Airliners - DC-8Greatest Airliners - 727 Whisperjethttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

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Hi Bob,I do the same, and at a constant speed that does work. But then try changing thrust and it doesn't take long to see how the trim characteristics diverge from reality in FS9 (and I can only compare the C172 to reality- maybe it is more real for more complex aircraft? ).I haven't yet tried this gauge, but maybe it does alter the dynamic trim performance over a range of thrust values, which would be cool. I must try it to....Bruce.Edit: "...But then try changing thrust and it doesn't take long to see how the trim characteristics diverge from reality... "The FS9 flight model may eventually seek and achieve the trimmed speed, it's maybe more the way it gets to that point which is what I'm referring to. At least in a C172, for thrust changes of several hundred RPM, the change in attitude is almost instantaneous, and airspeed never really diverges from what is was- assuming it was correctly trimmed in the first place. Bruce.

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Guest Adverse Yawn

Hi Bob,You're a better man than me then :) I agree that is assumed correct way in FS, but it always seems to me to be an inordinately long and tedious process compared to real life. In every FS aircraft I have the trim is digital and it is often the case that you climb slightly, trim down the smallest possible amount and now you descend slightly. I would say it takes roughly 10-20 times longer to trim an FS aircraft than a real one - which is in the order of 0.5secs in most cases. Indeed in a real aircraft I tend just know to move the wheel yay much and bingo, trimmed, a very intuitive process. It isn't the process in FS that is unrealistic, for me, the lack of realism is due to relatively how long and how fiddley the process is. I don't even think about it for real, so my idea of realism is that don't think about it simulated.All my personal and humble opinion of course. Just because I hate the FS trim system, doesn't make it wrong.

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I am speculating here.I think the fidgity trim in FS9 is because of two reasons.1. The amount of back pressure or forward pressure required for pitch change is not a function of speed in the sim. In the real aircraft you need very slight change if you are fast and large change when going slow. (I think I am correct on this).2. Since the trim wheel for most us atleast is not linked to the yoke.. we have no feel for how much the trim wheel is changing in relative to the yoke pressure. So we are fidgity. I suspect.MannyBut for throttle change... and trim speed. I am going to check this tool out. thank you.

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>Maybe I am missing something here, but when I adjust the trim>on any aircraft, using the CH yoke for instance, I hold the>attitude that I want with the yoke and then use a switch on>the yoke to gradually move the trim in the correct direction.>As I do that, the pressure that I have to hold against the>springs on the yoke can be gradually reduced, until such point>that I can take my hands off the yoke and the plane is flying>at the correct speed for the trim setting I set. >Are you saying that you use the mechanical wheel on the yoke or have assigned a button on the yoke to adjust the trim?

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Guest bobsk8

>>Maybe I am missing something here, but when I adjust the>trim>>on any aircraft, using the CH yoke for instance, I hold the>>attitude that I want with the yoke and then use a switch on>>the yoke to gradually move the trim in the correct>direction.>>As I do that, the pressure that I have to hold against the>>springs on the yoke can be gradually reduced, until such>point>>that I can take my hands off the yoke and the plane is>flying>>at the correct speed for the trim setting I set. >>>>Are you saying that you use the mechanical wheel on the yoke>or have assigned a button on the yoke to adjust the trim? As I stated above, I use a yoke switch to adjust the trim. There is no trim wheel on the Ch Yoke. The CH wheel is a centering wheel used to adjust the elevator pot center point of the yoke travel output.

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Guest nilsca

Hi bobsk8In non-hydraulic-stick-is-connected-to-the-elevator planesthat i fly in real life I apply the amount of back-pressure(=deflection) i want of a certain pitch attitude and thenuse the trim-wheel to trim out the force that pulls theyoke back into neutral.In a c172 that means that the stick stays at the positionit's pulled/pushed to and the trim makes it stay there asyou've said - that's the important detail though.The sim-pilot with a joystick that always wants back toneutral can't trim out that force - one applies trim butthe joystick still wants to go back!So up to now the sim-pilot has to move the joystick ANDmatch the deflection with corresponding simultaneous trimchanges ... with keys nonetheless. Not realistic at allimho.RealTrim when activated moves the trim-wheel for you asyou release pressure off the stick (e.g. move forwardto neutral). It basically makes the joystick a trim-wheelfor a moment until re-centered = you feel when you'retrimmed out like in real-life = more realistic imho :)CheersNils

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Guest nilsca

brucek,>I haven't yet tried this gauge, but maybe it >does alter the dynamic trim performance over >a range of thrust values, which would be cool. >I must try it to....RealTrim actually doesn't take the current thrust intoconsideration. I've noticed as well that FS9 doesn't seem to give trim different 'effectiveness' depending on that factor.Thus RealTrim uses one simple trim-effectiveness variablethat can be adjusted by the user per plane. When movingthe stick into neutral (=trimming out) it converts thatamount of movement into a relative/opppsite trim-wheel movement. It's a more realistic trim movement imho.From what I see that seems to map linear over thewhole airspeed range ... but this IS a proof of conceptafter all :) Taking current airspeed into considerationcould be done of course (albeit difficult to configureI assume).CheersNils

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Guest bobsk8

>Hi bobsk8>>In non-hydraulic-stick-is-connected-to-the-elevator planes>that i fly in real life I apply the amount of back-pressure>(=deflection) i want of a certain pitch attitude and then>use the trim-wheel to trim out the force that pulls the>yoke back into neutral.>>In a c172 that means that the stick stays at the position>it's pulled/pushed to and the trim makes it stay there as>you've said - that's the important detail though.>>The sim-pilot with a joystick that always wants back to>neutral can't trim out that force - one applies trim but>the joystick still wants to go back!>>So up to now the sim-pilot has to move the joystick AND>match the deflection with corresponding simultaneous trim>changes ... with keys nonetheless. Not realistic at all>imho.>>RealTrim when activated moves the trim-wheel for you as>you release pressure off the stick (e.g. move forward>to neutral). It basically makes the joystick a trim-wheel>for a moment until re-centered = you feel when you're>trimmed out like in real-life = more realistic imho :)>>Cheers>NilsSorry, still don't see how that is realistic. You are stating, if I am reading this correctly, that you hold the yoke in a certain position and you have an auto trim function that then moves the trim wheel by itself without any other input from the pilot. How is that more realistic whenyou are not "controlling anything"?

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>>>Maybe I am missing something here, but when I adjust the>>trim>>>on any aircraft, using the CH yoke for instance, I hold>the>>>attitude that I want with the yoke and then use a switch on>>>the yoke to gradually move the trim in the correct>>direction.>>>As I do that, the pressure that I have to hold against the>>>springs on the yoke can be gradually reduced, until such>>point>>>that I can take my hands off the yoke and the plane is>>flying>>>at the correct speed for the trim setting I set. >>>>>>>Are you saying that you use the mechanical wheel on the yoke>>or have assigned a button on the yoke to adjust the trim? >>As I stated above, I use a yoke switch to adjust the trim. >There is no trim wheel on the Ch Yoke. The CH wheel is a>centering wheel used to adjust the elevator pot center point>of the yoke travel output.>>>Exactly. That's why I said mechanical wheel and not trim wheel.;-)

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Guest nilsca

>I don't see how it can be improved...the 1.0 version will treat plane identifiers better soyou don't have to re-set effectiveness for two planes Cessna 172SP Paint1 Cessna 172SP Paint2(RealTrim looks at the title from aircraft.cfg to remember the effectiveness values per plane)There are a couple of small enhancements but I'd loveto make it compatible with FS2002 as well. If someoneis willing to test that and eventually run a debug-version that would be great(?)Maybe adding support for a directx button to triggertrimming would be good as well.CheersNils

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Guest nilsca

Bob,>Sorry, still don't see how that is realistic. You are>stating, if I am reading this correctly, that you hold the>yoke in a certain position and you have an auto trim function>that then moves the trim wheel by itself without any other>input from the pilot. How is that more realistic whenyou are>not "controlling anything"? actually the sim-pilot has to move the stick from the deflected position back to neutral - only for that bitof movement RealTrim will apply the change to the trim-wheel.the pilot HAS to give his input - movement of stick - whichis applied to the trim-wheel :) the stick de facto becomesthe trim wheel as long as it takes to perform that smooth movement back to neutralend-result: trimmed plane (elevator deflection was compensatedfor by trim), stick neutral (no more pressure felt on the stick)this is realistic in terms of that it needs one movement ofthe pilot to trim his plane - in real-life that's the wheel,with RealTrim it's the stick. Without RealTrim the sim-pilot has make two movements - the stick to neutral AND the wheel to match thatCheersNils

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So you are saying..that if I use the Yoke (fron center to push down of yoke) to push the nose down. The aircraft will remain nose down even though the stick has moved back to its center positions after I take my hand off the yoke?Manny

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Guest nilsca

Hi Manny>So you are saying..that if I use the Yoke (fron center to>push down of yoke) to push the nose down. The aircraft will>remain nose down even though the stick has moved back to its>center positions after I take my hand off the yoke?yes - you push the stick forward like in a real-plane to get a forward pitch - you move the stick back to neutral holding the trim key - you take your hands off the yoke - the plane hasn't changed its forward position one bitnote: once the airspeed changes you'll have to retrim again like in a real plane - RealTrim is not a "pitch auto-hold" but a converter of yoke into trim-wheel movement while you move the joystick smoothly into neutral and hold the trim-key. hope that clarifies it :)CheersNils

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Guest J_Niny

>>The sim-pilot with a joystick that always wants back to>neutral can't trim out that force - one applies trim but>the joystick still wants to go back!Thanks God for the MS SW Force Feedback Joy Stick and of course FSForce software by Dirks. I don`t have that problem:-) Regards,Jorge Niny

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I tried it on my laptop with a joystick.. Hmmm... this takes getting used to I guess.Manny

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>actually the sim-pilot has to move the stick from the >deflected position back to neutral - only for that bit>of movement RealTrim will apply the change to the trim-wheel.>I use a hatswitch on my Saitek X-45 joystick in the same way Bob uses the yoke buttons to trim out the "forces". Of course the "force" is nothing more than the joystick spring combined with what you see on the screen. The fact, that the stick is actually returning to a neutral spring position, is very suttle and un-noticed, yet the effect is very life like. Basically, a joystick with electric trim.The only difference between my setup, use, and "feel" of a real airplane, is that MSFS is usually a bit more sensitive when trying to get the sweet spot of not climbig or descending a bit.L.Adamson

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Guest bobsk8

>Hi Manny>>>So you are saying..that if I use the Yoke (fron center to>>push down of yoke) to push the nose down. The aircraft will>>remain nose down even though the stick has moved back to its>>center positions after I take my hand off the yoke?>>yes - you push the stick forward like in a real-plane to get a>forward pitch - you move the stick back to neutral holding the>trim key - you take your hands off the yoke - the plane hasn't>changed its forward position one bit>>note: once the airspeed changes you'll have to retrim again>like in a real plane - RealTrim is not a "pitch auto-hold" but>a converter of yoke into trim-wheel movement while you move>the joystick smoothly into neutral and hold the trim-key. >>hope that clarifies it :)>>Cheers>Nils>>>>>Well I am going back to what I said a few post's back. When I flew this 29 million dollar Training simulator that the airlines feel is accurate enough to completely train their pilots to the point that they kind fly passengers , when they are checked out in the sim it was like this: The airline sim's trim control, in no way, behaved the way you are describing this new program's behavior. It behaved as I have described, you set the pitch with the yoke, you adjusted trim which allowed you to release either forward or back pressure on the yoke to maintain the same pitch attitude that you want, and when the forward or back pressure was neutral , you released the trim button...... That is the way the people that fly for a living do it, and that is the way my Ch Yoke and FS9 is set up, and that is the way I do it when I fly a real aircraft. I fail to see how this can be improved upon and I doubt if Boeing or CAE would see it either......

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Guest nilsca

>>The sim-pilot with a joystick that .. wants back to neutral>MS SW Force Feedback Stick and .. FSForce good tip, thanks Jorge - that's the ultimate solution for those with a ff joystick :)RegardsNils

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Guest nilsca

Hey Bob>If I flew a real plane that did what you are describing, I>would be wishing I had brought a parachute along :)disclaimer: "RealTrim is for FS planes only and not recommended for real planes that have actual workingtrim-tabs" :)(maybe i should put that in the fine-print for the lawyers)CheersNils

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Guest bobsk8

>Hey Bob>>>If I flew a real plane that did what you are describing, I>>would be wishing I had brought a parachute along :)>>disclaimer: "RealTrim is for FS planes only and not >recommended for real planes that have actual working>trim-tabs" :)>>(maybe i should put that in the fine-print for the lawyers)>>Cheers>NilsBut what we are talking about is the premise that this makes FS9 more like the real thing and in fact it does the opposite.

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