RealTrim

[LAdamson 240]

>>By using the trim you should be able to get -ANY- aircraft to>fly straight and level, unless there are strong gusty winds. >Practice, practice, practice, with a 150,172, or 182, until>you can make 25-50 flights without any problem. This>experience will then carry over into other aircraft you fly. >But on the other hand, we can't give the impression that a real aircraft will fly straight and level for very long, less than +50/-50' without small altitude excursions up or down. You'll be correcting with slight movements of the yoke/stick while watching the horizon and glances at the altimeter. I can go quite a distance in FS with little altitude deviation by keeping a good eye on the simulated horizon. But it drives me nuts, as I prefer to scan side to side, spot view, etc!Otherwise, I'm going to be moving a few hundred feet up or down with the majority of models. Better yet, just use the vertical axis of the auto-pilot for any long distances, or bag the notion of hand-flying a simulated model perfectly level for a long period of time.FS98 was excellent for hands off flight, but then it isn't too realistic to have the time to make a pot of coffee, and drink it all, while the plane leisurly maintains a given altitude with no A/P.L.Adamson

[LAdamson 240]

>>The CH Yoke doesn't hold position when you trim, it returns>to>>center just like a joystick.>>Is this true for all Yokes available for FS? Or do FF yokes>exist for FS? Well if they do I suppose the price would make>them uninteresting to consider.It really doesn't matter if the simulated joystick/yoke position is a quarter of an inch displaced while trimmed for a climb, descent, or whatever.We're not returning the joystick to neutral postion, then trimming, as some have suggested. We are simply trimming until we can relieve stick pressure and fly level, or maintain a climb or descent rate.Of course, in a real plane, you can trim with your eyes closed, as you're actually trimming out stick/yoke forces. With FS, and a non FF stick, the trimming senses are transferred to the stick from what you see on screen. But yet the percieved effect to the brain, is much the same. I don't really care for force-feedback sticks, personally.L.Adamsonedit: perhaps I'll try this program, just to see if I'm getting the wrong impression of what it's all about. But I'm content with my stick and trim hatswitch, as is.2nd edit: regarding trimming a real plane with your eyes closed. You'll trim out the forces all right, but you might end up going downhill, or climbing without knowing it. Not recommended! :(

[Guest allcott]

Well, for FF sticks then FS Force is the `genuine` article - you actually trim out the force on the stick, NOT the position. I can see tha this loevely new trim device remioves another of the basic errors of FS - adjusting the autopilot in the vertical plane is done by trim, not elevator. So if the aircraft is NOT in trim when the a/p is activeated, it certainly won't be once it's deactivatedBob's summary of the CH Yoke is wrong as he is not trimming to meet the position of the yoke defined by the forces acting upon it from the flying control surfaces, he is constantly trimmming to the neutral position of the yoke as defined by the springs. This does not vary with CG, airflow or weight and weather effects so is completely false, but as close as one is likely to get outside of a `29 Million Dollar simulator`. For one so steeped in `realism`, it's a strange choice to attack the methodology of this trim device when using such a faux device to control pitch and roll. It may look like a yoke, but it doesn't BEHAVE like one, no matter how you trim it. FSforce and an adequate FF stick WILL behave like a real one, but I'm not aware of ANY yoke product for the FS world that actually replicates the real thing - they are all spring loaded I think, although some are better at it than others!Allcott

[LAdamson 240]

>Well, for FF sticks then FS Force is the `genuine` article ->you actually trim out the force on the stick, NOT the>position. I can see tha this loevely new trim device remioves>another of the basic errors of FS - adjusting the autopilot in>the vertical plane is done by trim, not elevator. So if the>aircraft is NOT in trim when the a/p is activeated, it>certainly won't be once it's deactivatedSince there is no real airflow over any flight surface in MSFS, IMO it doesn't matter whether the simulated A/P uses trim or elevator to get the correct final solution. This is no different than a real aircraft using a moveable trim surface, or just adjustable bias springs connected to the control stick.>>Bob's summary of the CH Yoke is wrong as he is not trimming to>meet the position of the yoke defined by the forces acting>upon it from the flying control surfaces, he is constantly>trimmming to the neutral position of the yoke as defined by>the springs. This does not vary with CG, airflow or weight>and weather effects so is completely false, but as close as>one is likely to get outside of a `29 Million Dollar>simulator`. I agree with Bob, as the "final effect" is much the same. If it's my real pilot brain filling in the gaps, then so be it. I "feel" a need for trim, and trim the force out; and I do trim a lot. With the exception of severe "out of trim" situations, the non FF stick and trim buttons are all I need to get a resonable replication of the real thing. With some of the better flight models, even the forces of a severly out of trim situation can be "faked" with a combination of what we see on the screen, the programmed reactions to control inputs, and the mind filling the gap.However, for the mind to fill in the gaps, I suppose the mind has to know what the "feel" is, in the first place. There could be quite a difference in percieved "feel" between those who are use to trimming real aircraft, and those who have just flown with desktop simulators.For instance, perform a "real life" short or soft-field takeoff, and then keep forward pressure on the yoke to remain in ground effect as airspeed builds. The forward pressure required really builds, but you'll never really feel this force on a non-force feed simulated stick. Yet, with some models, I can get the feel of force, without having an actual force present. It's back to the old mind games, of the car next to you, pulling slightly forward at the stop light, yet you feel you're moving backwards, and slam on the brakes. You didn't move at all, but swore you did, just because of a visual reference.L.Adamson

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Its amazin that such a simple (but clever) module has caused so much confusion :D

[LAdamson 240]

>Its amazin that such a simple (but clever) module has caused>so much confusion :DI suppose everyone has a preference for whatever reason. But after downloading and applying "RealTrim", I prefer the "old" way, of just using my joystick & the "technically electric" hatbutton trim switch. When I apply back pressure or forward stick pressure for a climb or descent, my thumb is already on the trim button, and it's only a few seconds before I can let go, and the plane is in it's trimmed condition. Since everything I've flown lately has stick mounted electric trim switches, my "old" way seems very natural.IMO, if someone wants to use this trim module in place of "mousing" a trim wheel, then that's fine. But I've been using simulated electric trim buttons for years, and the standard default system seems more realistic to me.L.Adamsonedit: BTW, you can still download the module, and just not use the trim activation key, if not desired. Works either way.

[Avcomware 1]

Hi Nils.The problem with the Trim goes beyond the Joystick and or the Trim technique. Part of it is in the physical limitation of the Controller / Joystick, part of the FS engine, and most of it is the Flight dynamics, it takes too long for the aircraft / model to stabilize. You can spend 30 sec. to as long as minutes to trim off certain configurations, depending on the speed attitude, rate of initial change etc. Most of the aircraft cannot be configured for Hands off flight, for longer than a few seconds. To gain better control without much change MS could modify the rate of change per step, have one direction only half the movement / step size.The Trim issue needs to be addressed, but it cannot be resolved unless they get serious about improving the overall Flight model.The idea you have with

[David B 53]

Hi Nils. After reading the threads, I think I have a good handle on what your program will accomplish. When time permits, I'll give it a go.If I understand correctly, if I'm holding say 20 degress pitch on the 737, for takeoff/climbout; as I do in FS and real world. I may have the yoke pulled backa certain amount. If I trim the pressure off in the real boeing, the yoke stays at that point were I trimmed the press off.On the CH yoke, I can trim for my 20 degrees pitch holding the yoke were needed, to relieve pressure...but as i relieve the pressure on the yoke, it wants to return to the centered/neutral position.So, if I'm understanding your module corecctly, it would be as if it compensated for the back pressure...simulating holding the yoke in that position, as on the real 737....but, because the CH yoke can't stay trimmed back from centered due to springs, you compensate the difference.Look forward to trying your module, when time permits. Sounds like something I've been looking for.Thank You for your efforts.Best,David

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Larry,I am familiar with two types (Arrow and Seneca)which have electric trim. In both cases I find it easier and quicker to use the trim wheel. However, that could be reticence to change my ways, in my part because I am in the grand scheme of things, very low houred on both types.

[Guest bobsk8]

>Hi Nils. After reading the threads, I think I have a good>handle on what your program will accomplish. When time>permits, I'll give it a go.>>If I understand correctly, if I'm holding say 20 degress pitch>on the 737, for takeoff/climbout; as I do in FS and real>world. I may have the yoke pulled backa certain amount. If I>trim the pressure off in the real boeing, the yoke stays at>that point were I trimmed the press off.>>On the CH yoke, I can trim for my 20 degrees pitch holding the>yoke were needed, to relieve pressure...but as i relieve the>pressure on the yoke, it wants to return to the>centered/neutral position.>>So, if I'm understanding your module corecctly, it would be as>if it compensated for the back pressure...simulating holding>the yoke in that position, as on the real 737....but, because>the CH yoke can't stay trimmed back from centered due to>springs, you compensate the difference.>>Look forward to trying your module, when time permits. Sounds>like something I've been looking for.>>Thank You for your efforts.>>Best,>David>OK, Two Questions....1. When using the normal trim and the CH yoke ( or any yoke in FS9) and you are holding 13 degrees pitch up with the yoke and you adjust the trim to zero the applied back pressure out, where does the yoke return to when you have it trimmed and release the back pressure? ans.. It goes to it's center due to the spring pressure2. When using this Real Trim, and holding back pressure for 13 degrees pitch up and you hit the real trim button and release the yoke, where does the yoke return to?ans It goes to it's center position due to the spring pressure.In other words, no matter what you use to trim the aircraft, the yoke winds up at the exact same position. Now, explain to me what advantage that the Real Trim has, other than you don't have to learn how to adjust the trim with a wheel or switches but let the "auto-trim" do it.....

[Guest Cindy_Zoonan]

I'm sorry but what AVCOM says is completeley wrong. The period of oscillation when displaced from equillibrium is very long, on the order of a minute or two for a 172 or a 152. The modeling in the flight simulator is representative.In my experience there are very few students, either primary, instrument or commerical, that know the correct procedure for trimming the aircraft. The correct procedure, as Bob pvt SEL accurately describes, is to set the power and pitch of the aircraft, and then wait. As the airplane re-establishes equillibrium, then trim. Because the period of oscillation is typical very long (on the order of a minute or two), pilots should not touch the trim until the plane's oscillations dampen out. This of course requires the pilot to hold pressure on the stick until the airplane re-establishes equillibrium. Nevertheless, this procedure is the correct procedure as opposed to the pilot constantly fiddling with the trim and manipulating the yoke simulatenously to trim off control stick pressure. You set the power, pitch and trim one time only and then leave it alone. This issue is a particularly important to safety of flight. Just as pilots who cannot perform compass turn accurately cannot fly partial panel, pilots who do not understand the function and manipulation of the trim control are unable to competently transition from one flight state to another (such as level off, descent, change in airspeed). In VMC you can sort of cover for poor pilot technique. In IMC, however, you will be in trouble, particularly as you re-configure the airplane from level to descent when, for example, intercepting the glideslope on an ILS approach. Using the above, correct technique, you can reconfigure the aircraft in a new state very quickly and precisely, and then pay attention to other, more important things. Using the incorrect technique, you may end up never accurately establishing the correct trim for a new flight state. Flying down an ILS maintaining glideslope, airspeed, localizer, communication, timing your approach, while at the same time fiddling with trim control is just a receipe for a terminal short approach.That being said, my concern with RealTrim is that it may convey to the flight sim enthusiast the wrong impression of how to trim aircraft. You trim aircraft not by trimming off the control pressure, but by looking at the position of the trim. There is one and only one trim setting for each phase of flight, and there are really only three conditions of flight: climb, cruise, descent. - so there are only three trim settings. So really trimming the aircraft is incredibly easy - set the power setting, set the pitch, and then move the trim to its designated position. The airplane may oscillate a little bit, the pilot dampens the oscillations out with gentle pressure on the stick, and the airplane re-equillibrates to its new flight condition. A simple, effective, accurate and correct procedure.

[Guest nilsca]

good morning Cindy>I'm sorry but what AVCOM says is completeley wrong ..>period of oscillation .. and then wait .. then trim.>pilots should not touch the trim .. until the airplane>re-establishes equillibrium. i disagree, but that's how aviation works - so manypilots so many oppinions :) We could start a discussionabout flaps/no-flaps landings here too :(>That being said, my concern with RealTrim is that it may>convey to the flight sim enthusiast the wrong impression of>how to trim aircraft. You trim aircraft not by trimming off>the control pressure, but by looking at the position of the>trim. What you're describing is not accurate and has probablyto be attributed to me expressing myself very poorly inthe readme and posts here. RealTrim converts the stickto a trim-wheel as long as you push a button - the sim-pilot'feels' trimming as a function of the shrinking pressureon the stick.You seem to suggest that there's a way of "Trimming off control pressure" in default FS but that's not so imhounless you're using a FF joystick and something like FS Force to get to a setup that doesn't want to return to neutralCheersNils

[Guest bobsk8]

>good morning Cindy>>>I'm sorry but what AVCOM says is completeley wrong ..>>period of oscillation .. and then wait .. then trim.>>pilots should not touch the trim .. until the airplane>>re-establishes equillibrium. >>i disagree, but that's how aviation works - so many>pilots so many oppinions :) We could start a discussion>about flaps/no-flaps landings here too :(>>>That being said, my concern with RealTrim is that it may>>convey to the flight sim enthusiast the wrong impression of>>how to trim aircraft. You trim aircraft not by trimming off>>the control pressure, but by looking at the position of the>>trim. >>What you're describing is not accurate and has probably>to be attributed to me expressing myself very poorly in>the readme and posts here. RealTrim converts the stick>to a trim-wheel as long as you push a button - the sim-pilot>'feels' trimming as a function of the shrinking pressure>on the stick.>>You seem to suggest that there's a way of "Trimming off >control pressure" in default FS but that's not so imho>unless you're using a FF joystick and something like >FS Force to get to a setup that doesn't want to return >to neutral>>Cheers>Nils>Sorry, but Cindy is right.....Nils, it is obvious to me that your understanding of how to properly trim an aircraft is lacking, and if you were going to try to teach a student pilot using your logic, the poor student would never get learn to trim an aircraft properly and would possibly be a danger to him or herself and others. No matter how many time I have explained it, you seem to have a great deal of trouble grasping the concept of properly trimming an aircraft in FS9. There is no way in real life, that a person would feel anything from the trim control while they are adjusting the trim. You feel proper trim in the reduction of back or forwared pressure required on the yoke to maintain desired pitch and airspeed, and you never adjust the yoke in order to trim the aircraft , which is what you are advocating someone learn with your system. It is as unrealistic as you can get. What is disturbing is that some people will adopt your method, develop some bad habits regarding trimming a plane, and possible carry them over into a real aircraft someday. May I suggest two books you might look at:Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang LangewiescheKerschners Student Pilot Manual

[Avcomware 1]

Hi, Cindy.What you are saying demonstrates that you are very confused about

[Avcomware 1]

Hi, Bob.I think you are confused as what this utility, does. While you and Cindy are also confused about trim adjust, that is another point that I don't want o get into right now. What this utility tries to do is make up for the fact that MSFS takes way toooo long to trim, because of the lousy flight dynamics involved.This utility can help with getting a more faster and more accurate JS control adjustment / setting. See my message to Cindy for more info. TV