TO/GA During Pattern Work

[Faelandaea 16]

I am currently using the 777F and attempting to practice pattern work.  Up to and including yesterday I flew the pattern with absolutely no issues.  Then i decided to stream the pattern work.  During the show, everything still worked except for TOGA on the subsequent landings.  It works great for the initial takeoff.

I am using proper procedure, which is:

• Joystick Throttle Full
• Press TOGA screw on MCP

That's literally all that is needed.  Autothrottle is indeed on, and thus as long as the physical throttle is full and I press TOGA, it's supposed to TOGA no matter what.  Yet it is not doing so.  Once the wheels touch down the throttles go to idle and I have to manually disconnect the auto-throttle completely to be able to take off again.

I figured it was just that sim session, so I shut down and went to bed.  But now today it is still doing the same thing.  Both P3Dv4 and the 777 are the latest versions.

Any ideas?

Faelandaea Dravin

[skelsey 765]

The TOGA switches are inhibited below 5ft radio altitude.

Ask Emirates.

[Faelandaea 16]

That's odd.  It was working great for me up until last night.  For touch-and-goes I am reading the published procedure as:

• Touch down
• Flaps 20
• Throttle Full (Joystick)
• TOGA
• Climb back out

So with what you are saying then the proper procedure would be:

• Touch Down
• Flaps 20
• Disconnect Auto-Throttle
• Throttle Full
• Climbout
• Activate Autothrottle
• Reset speeds, etc and reactivate holds

Seems a bit cumbersome but I guess I can map an Autothrottle disconnect somewhere on my flight yoke.

[skelsey 765]

If it was working before, it was wrong ;).

The second procedure is correct. TOGA is inhibited to avoid it being accidentally engaged during the landing roll and causing an overrun: this means go-arounds after touchdown (or from very low altitude) require slightly more thought and, yes, application of manual thrust.

Something which may easily be overlooked and, as I say, the cause of the B777 crash at DXB.

[Faelandaea 16]

That does make perfect sense.  Just threw me off.  I did recently update P3D to apply that hotfix.  Maybe it was acting incorrectly until I applied the fix?  

Typically in the pattern it is best to use manual throttle anyway, but lately I have been using FS2Crew and pattern work runs to shoot ILS approaches and thus I have been using automated flight a lot more for that.

Anyway,. thanks for clarifying.  And just to clarify ... mapping the default P3D Autothrottle Disco does work for the PMDG airliners?  I know with some of my more complex airline level aircraft using default FS mappings instead of using click spots in the flight deck is usually a bad idea.  I figured I'd clarify here before going and messing with my current working setup.  :)

[777simmer 117]

If you press TOGA first and thereafter have touchdown...TOGA will (should) stay engaged and continue to guide you.

If you press TOGA after touchdown...it will (should) not engage.

[Driverab330 74]

On 7/7/2017 at 3:46 AM, Faelandaea said:

That's odd.  It was working great for me up until last night.  For touch-and-goes I am reading the published procedure as:

• Touch down
• Flaps 20
• Throttle Full (Joystick)
• TOGA
• Climb back out

So with what you are saying then the proper procedure would be:

• Touch Down
• Flaps 20
• Disconnect Auto-Throttle
• Throttle Full
• Climbout
• Activate Autothrottle
• Reset speeds, etc and reactivate holds

Seems a bit cumbersome but I guess I can map an Autothrottle disconnect somewhere on my flight yoke.

To my understanding the A/T should be disconnected automatically after touch down. 

 

I strongly advise doing the circuit with manual thrust in flight sim which makes thing whole lot easier. 

 

The real life base training procedure after touch down for a weight ~230tons is something like this:

 

After touch down

F20 

stand up the thrust to ~55N1

 After both engine had stabilised

set 85% N1

at Vref call rotate 

 

At 400ft AAL make the turn with 25 deg AOB 

passing 1000ft AAL select F5 and begin to level off at 1500ft AAL

On downwind, select an approach (could be ILS if you need some vertical guidance , otherwise just a runway waypoint would do) with rwy waypoint to the top with inbound course of rwy HDG. The downwind spacing shown on the ND will be roughly 2.5nm. (Basically the offset value)

Abeam rwy threshold, gear down F20

start the timer

After 45sec make the base turn, set AOB 15-20 depends on wind. 

After initiating the turn select F30, reduce speed to Vref + 5 and set 400fpm rate of descend initially.

 

middle of the base turn, altitude should be roughly 1350ft AAL

 

then slowly increase ROD to 700-800fpm, use the track miles to the rwy waypoint on the top right corner  of the ND ( or ILS DME )to help (3x the track mile number = altitude above airport elevation) 

 

use the noodle on the ND for the turn 

Once you can see the PAPI or the G/S on the PFD you may use it for vertical guidance. 

the rest is straight forward 

 

 

This is what I normally do with PMDG 777, just loads of circuit work and visual approaches to get ready for a flight.

hope it helps ; ) 

 

[PMDG777 231]

On ‎9‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 8:11 AM, Driverab330 said:

At 400ft AAL make the turn with 25 deg AOB 

Interesting, in Australia turns below 500ft AGL are illegal

[downscc 1,327]

2 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

Interesting, in Australia turns below 500ft AGL are illegal

TERPS in the US provides clearance for turns above 400 AGL unless obstructions are noted such as in the obstruction clearance departure procedures.  Our lowest legal altitude over non congested areas is 500 AGL, except for terminal operations or special activities (e.g. firefighting, law enforcement, etc.).

[Driverab330 74]

5 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

Interesting, in Australia turns below 500ft AGL are illegal

Our company policy provides no turn below 400AGL which is approved by our local CAA. 

Thanks for the info, it's good to know. 

 

edit: After some clarification was sorted from our line operation expert, the "no turn below 400ft AGL" is based on PANOPS SID design for Turning Departures (ICAO doc 8186 vol 2 Part I chapter 3.2.4 - 3.2.5 p85-86). see the link below. Any state variation will be highlighted in our ops manual which is airport specific. And for airports we have been using for base training, the 400ft rule still applies. 

http://code7700.com/pdfs/icao_doc_8168_vol2.pdf 

[Faelandaea 16]

I think in the USA it depends really on the airport's published procedures.  My home airport, for example, all aircraft regardless of operations or type have to maintain runway heading to 5,700 feet, regardless of runway direction, before performing any turns or maneuvers.  The only exception is military aircraft and when we have an air show.  The airport is at 4,700 feet, so that makes a 1,000 foot climb-out before starting any turns.  That's for takeoff only, though.  Turns for base and final can be made below that as needed to perform a safe landing.  But takeoffs have to stay runway heading to 5,700 feet.

That's why it is always important to reference particular airport charts for any airports you use on any occasion, because facility rules are just as required as the FAA rules themselves.

[icemarkom 59]

I am curious, what's that airport? There is no such thing as "mandatory runway heading regardless of operation" in the US. There could be various (not so) voluntary noise abatement procedures in place, but they are entirely trumped by, for example, safety.

An interesting example are the airports that restrict turns below 1000 ft AGL (like your home airport). If you are in a single engine aircraft doing pattern work, by the time you are at 1000 AGL (usual pattern altitude), your chances of gliding back to the airport should the engine die are slim. As safety of flight is paramount, and PIC is ultimately responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft, noise abatement be damned, and turn at 600 AGL is just fine.

The above, obviously, does not apply to a departing T7, but I got carried away a little.