>So payware doesn't take any effort and time at all to>produce?>The people producing it are somehow superhumans and at the>same time far less qualified to do that work than people doing>the same for free?I guess the point is, that payware producers get PAID for their efforts and time - so why feel sorry for them ?I often wonder why there always seems to be so much more sympathy for those "poor" payware-producers in this forum than with people who got burned by buying faulty software. Of course I do not demand "perfection" and some smaller bugs can hardly be avoided but some products have been released in such a shady state in the past that one can only call that "utmost impertinence" ! And yes, the "pay button" always seems to work - cashing in the money at once and promising a product that will work reasonably well some time in the future seems to be the "standard procedure" all too often...Maybe a new system should be introduced in the future where the full price only has to be paid for a product as soon as the final patch has been released!

no, he claimed that payware authors should not be appreciated for their work, noone should be allowed to say it's any good.Their effort and investment should not be respected, which effectively means their work should not be recognised as theirs...Most of them don't make money out of it btw, they are happy if they get the cost of doing it back...

Y'know, I've found that the easy way to avoid getting burned is to wait a few days before hitting that "always working" pay button (which is considerably simpler to program than even the simplest FS addon btw) and see what folks on the forums say about the product. By doing so, I've managed to purchase about fifteen payware planes and not be burned a single time as they are all fantastic and I would argue most of them are a notch above even the best freeware I've found. I know that's not the PC thing to say, but it's the truth of my experience. It's of course true that some products have been released in a poor state of completion over the years. That's the nature of a free market. The problem is that posts like yours and (I think) the ones that the topic starter are referring to seem to imply that there is a gross preponderance of the shoddy products/developers and a relatively few good ones, when in fact I would argue the opposite is the case. Most devs are good and reliable and very accomodating in my experience and the ones that aren't I pretty much know about and avoid just from reading the forums...

Actually he said:"The work that is being put in is relevant only in relation to the results obtained. If the results are not what was promised, the work doesn't matter. THIS is what is called professionalism."I think I can agree to that. If a company needs three years to produce a new add-on and it still does not work when it is released what virtue lies in this three year

>Y'know, I've found that the easy way to avoid getting burned>is to wait a few days before hitting that "always working" pay>button (which is considerably simpler to program than even the>simplest FS addon btw) and see what folks on the forums say>about the product. By doing so, I've managed to purchase>about fifteen payware planes and not be burned a single timeThe problem with your argumentation is, that it needs quite a number of people who GET BURNED just so that YOU do NOT get burned (is that fair???)!!! If everybody waited to see what others had to say about a new product NOBODY would EVER buy a new product again!!!>It's of course true that some products have been released in a>poor state of completion over the years. That's the nature of>a free market. The problem is that posts like yours and (I>think) the ones that the topic starter are referring to seem>to imply that there is a gross preponderance of the shoddy>products/developers and a relatively few good ones, It depends on how you define "good ones". If "good ones" = only with very minor bugs at its initial release day then, yes, this products are rather in the minority (I can only think of the DF727 and, maybe, the LDS 767 which would fall into that category at the moment but of course I did not buy EVERY product available for the sim)!

You're saying products that release with only fairly minor bugs are in the minority? I'd dissagree with that. Are you including GA planes in that mix or just heavies? I look at the whole market, not just one section of it. As far as it being fair to rely on people getting burned all I can say is buyer beware. If people are too dumb to wait a couple of days then thats not my problem. Sorry. It's true if everyone waited nobody would buy, but you know what they say - a sucker is born every minute. As it stands, there are a half dozen or so devs that I would buy from pretty much without trepidation anyway.

>You're saying products that release with only fairly minor>bugs are in the minority? I'd dissagree with that. Are you>including GA planes in that mix or just heavies? I look at>the whole market, not just one section of it. I have to admit, I was mainly considering the very complex products like big airliners. Naturally there will be less problems with sceneries or GA planes... ... but then in this category (less complex add-ons) it is often unnecessary to use payware as there are very good freeware-addons available, too (--> new CanarySim - Scenery, which is not even a "simple" addon, there are also some great GA - freeware-planes available !)>>As far as it being fair to rely on people getting burned all I>can say is buyer beware. If people are too dumb to wait a>couple of days then thats not my problem. Sorry. It's true>if everyone waited nobody would buy, but you know what they>say - a sucker is born every minute. :-) Well, not a very philanthropic point of view, but certainly true...

While I agree with many of the points Tero has brought up I totally disagree with others. I have seen customers being insulted and 'brought down a level' by a number of payware developers for basically no reason at all. I really do believe the developers have to respect their customers completely before the customer respects the developer. It's plainly obvious to see in some groups that the 'celebrity status' of being a famous FS developer has went straight to their heads - it's quite sad when you think about it really!. Give humans a little power and see what happens...it's our nature.They should keep in mind the old saying - "The Customer is always right!."I totally agree with old bear: "If you are going to publish a product in the big wide world then you have to take the consequences"Truer words were never spoken, if you don't like it don't do it - but hey they will anyway because these days payware development means big money and that seems to come first .Funny thing, though: The "Buy Now" button always seems to work and never requires a "patch" Amen

I've got a ton of freeware and quite a few payware GA planes. While it's true some of the best freeware ones are extremely good (I marvel at the huge commitment of time and effort involved for no more than the satisfaction of a job well-done), I still find the best payware add-ons to be more complete packages (as they should be).I wouldn't trade in my RealAir planes for anything... :)

>They should keep in mind the old saying - "The Customer is>always right!."The following is copied from the Urban Legends Reference Pages. (http://www.snopes.com)---------------------------------------------------------This excerpt from a July 1995 Reader's Digest "Personal Glimpses" feature: While Southwest Airlines CEO Herb Kelleher gives customers a terrific deal on an airplane seat, he makes it clear that his employees come first -- even if it means dismissing customers. But aren't customers always right? "No, they are not," Kelleher snaps. "And I think that's one of the biggest betrayals of employees a boss can possibly commit. The customer is sometimes wrong. We don't carry those sorts of customers. We write to them and say, 'Fly somebody else. Don't abuse our people.'" An example of Kelleher's putting his philosophy into action is found in Nuts!, a 1996 volume chronicling the success of Southwest Airlines: Jim Ruppel, director of customer relations, and Sherry Phelps, director of corporate employment, tell the story of a woman who frequently flew on Southwest, but was disappointed with every aspect of the company's operation. In fact, she became known as the "Pen Pal" because after every flight she wrote in with a complaint. She didn't like the fact that the company didn't assign seats; she didn't like the absence of a first-class section; she didn't like not having a meal in flight; she didn't like Southwest's boarding procedure; she didn't like the flight attendants' sporty uniforms and the casual atmosphere. And she hated peanuts! Her last letter, reciting a litany of complaints, momentarily stumped Southwest's customer relations people. Phelps explains: "Southwest prides itself on answering every letter that comes to the company and several employees tried to respond to this customer, patiently explaining why we do things the way we do them. [Our response] was quickly becoming a [large] volume until they bumped it up to Herb's desk, with a note: 'This one's yours.' In sixty seconds, Kelleher wrote back and said, 'Dear Mrs. Crabapple, We will miss you. Love, Herb.'"---------------------------------------------------------------For another hilarious take on "The customer is not always right", try http://www.actsofgord.com/Regards,...jim

>"Kelleher wrote back and said, 'Dear Mrs. Crabapple, We will miss you. Love, Herb.'":-lol Ha Ha, that is hilarious. Reminds me of a quote from some anonymous author in response to the old "the customer is always right" statement....his response was that "the customer is NOT always right, he is just the customer.While any business person in his right mind will listen carefully to customer feedback and attempt to meet the needs of same, there may come a time when it is better to "cut your losses" as Herb did or suffer the ongoing harassment of some customers who think that they are "always right"In these days of vocal customer disatisfaction over real or perceived problems with a product it is refreshing to hear that managers have options as well. :-lol :-lol

>no, he claimed that payware authors should not be appreciated>for their work, noone should be allowed to say it's any good.>Their effort and investment should not be respected, which>effectively means their work should not be recognised as>theirs...>>Most of them don't make money out of it btw, they are happy if>they get the cost of doing it back...>I said no such thing. Please reread what I wrote before distorting it and bending it to your own argument. ricardo

you said literally:>>- Respect the work of others, it has taken a lot of time and>>effort to do.>>This may apply to freeware, but definitely does not to>PAYWARE. in other words, there's no effort going into payware according to you, and payware authors should not be respected.

As a friendly addendum to Ron's post I offer without much comment some statistics about our customers, most of whom are reasonable, friendly and satisfied:We get up to 100 requests per week from customers who's computers have "lost their hard drives" and they need a re-download....that's an awful lot of computer hard drives going wrong! Each customer aircraft renewal takes between 5 and 10 minutes to check and re-issue. That's quite a lot of hours just re-issuing downloads. We encourage our customers to make personal backups which take about three minutes.We get up to 50 requests per week about features not "found" on our aircraft which are all explained in a fully illustrated flying guide which they are invited to read after installation, together with Pilots Manuals and Checklists for each aircraft, other documents, guides and FAQ's and help files. Very few customers actually read them so instead tend to request details via e-mail. The answer to almost every enquiry can be found in the docs.We get around 25 requests every week from customers who provided the wrong e-mail address when ordering and wonder why their download notices did not arrive. Each one of these has to be handled manually and can take up to twenty minutes to sort out.We have up to 20 customers per week who clicked BUY NOW twice by mistake, or buy an upgrade aircraft but don't have the qualifying older aircraft, resulting in a refund and manual re-order taking up to twenty minutes to sort out.Most customers are patient and appreciative, but we do get the odd one who, even if we bend over backwards to help, can be quite rude. But most are perfectly ok, as long as we deliver what they want the very moment they want it!Yes, yes, I agree....if you can't stand the heat get out of the Kitchen...but it can be quite "entertaining" sometimes.With all respect and appreciation for our loyal customers.Kind Regards,Rob Young - RealAir Simulations

I've been in retail nearly my entire working life. The only time anyone ever trotts out the tired old "customer is always right" cliche is when they've just made an entirely unreasonable (and sometimes borderline insane) request.