Hi all,Having followed the discussions lately here about certain recent payware release, and also some previous talks on the subject, I thought I'd write a few lines.It is obvious to me, after been flight simming for about 20 years, that there are always new generations "born into flightsimming" every couple of years, and each generation brings their own ideas and views into the soup. Flightsimming generally speaking has gone leaps forward in recent years, and continues to do so for, what seems now, indefinitely. There's no limit. Thus the hobby is never at rest so to speak.It seems that, like in almost all other areas of life, in flightsimming too some certain kinds of changes have happened. What I'm talking about is the certain attitude of people, that seems more and more pronounced every year. I don't know if the internet and its anonymous nature is to blame, or the fact that younger and younger people have access to full-blown "internet access", but it seems that there are more and more people raving in many internet fora, making outrageous demands, statements and accusations with zero credibility. With the advent of internet the free flow of information (or rather, bits of information that no one has taught and no one truly digested), the so called "experts" are everywhere to be found.The reason I titled this post "Payware and their fans" is because I think this effect is most pronounced in these mindless battless between people who either A) support different payware teams or :( have some personal grudges towards certain payware groups because they feel they "have been mistreated" somehow. The payware field seems to attract a LOT of people to give their "expert" opinions on almost any subject.I know for a fact that many of the respected payware developers of today have nothing but the utmost respect for each other's work, and sincerely hope to see success and innovation also in the other side of the fence. In the end the customers benefit from this situation, but also the payware developers who will get more ideas for their work and thus create new, mind-blowing features in their products. Our hobby is still so special and relatively small, that we should have an open-minded and positive attitude towards anything new that has potential. Unfortunately this doesn't happen too often.I would like to make a small list of things that I think people should consider when posting their thoughts about payware, quality and customer rights. These are my very own ideas, no one elses and I fully stand behind them.- Respect the work of others, it has taken a lot of time and effort to do.- Even if you are a customer and do have rights, you also have a responsibility to behave like a human being and *ensure* that you yourself are not "at fault" if you are throwing insane comments around.- If you have "bugs" or "wrongly done features" to report to developers, *ensure* first that you are, in fact, CORRECT in your statement. The developers don't have time to continously answer 10-year-old "experts" on every possible topic where the "expert" has discovered something that was "modelled differently in the OTHER aircraft".- Don't start, support or take part in stupid and mindless fights about "payware X is the best, payware Y sucks". Why ? Because the developers themselves (who you are so bravely trying to defend from the unfairness of the world) are not in argument themselves, and could care less what someone thinks, because the developers are the ones who have DONE their research and KNOW why they have modelled something this way or that way. If someone has a problem with certain developers or their products' features, it's not the developer's problem IF the product is working. Pointing out things to stupid people NEVER ends... the "experts" keep coming and coming and their endless list of problems grows by the day.- Don't support negativity in discussions about payware. No one wants to see that, least of all the developers. I know this one payware group pretty well that does their work with FS because they love it. They want others to enjoy their fruits of labour. Not everyone to fight because of it.- Put things in perspective. Don't expect that everyone is always awake and reading forums and making patches and corrections and releasing them at the same time. Don't expect the moon from the sky if you are paying a price of a gas tank half filled.- Concentrate on what you HAVE, not what you don't have. If you have problems with your product and your day is ruined because of that, you are entitled to complain about it, but continuous whining and moaning about what you think you should have is pointless. The developers most probably follow their own schedules and ideas of implementation, not yours. If you don't like that scenario, then you can vote with your wallet. Make your research.- Even though in many respects there is a good point in putting payware in "order", with respect to quality and value for money, you should understand that different people have different requirements, and the persons making reviews might not always have the same needs that you have. Again, make good research on your own. There's PLENTY of information available.- Enjoy your hobby and respect other people's opinions and (if they happen to have that) their knowledge.I know I am boring with my need to always "list things" :), but that's what I do... Just some food for thought. Have a nice weekend!Tero

>- Even if you are a customer and do have rights, you also have>a responsibility to behave like a human being and *ensure*>that you yourself are not "at fault" if you are throwing>insane comments around.It might frighten you, but the people you are referring to (among everyone else) are behaving like human beings.I know. Not a very comforting thought.

Overall the flight sim community and even its "a really excited user" are tame,polite and freindly compared to others. Stick your head in one of the Doom,Quake,Unreal or any of the online shooter forums. Ive seen full blown riots created over really nothing. There is a video floating around of a German kid trying to get online to play Quake I believe.After 10 minutes of swearing,hyperventilating and throwing things around the room, he finally gets online and gets killed. He then proceeds to destroy his keyboard and anything in sight.Yes some flightsimmers take it pretty seriously but are Mother Teresas compared to some of the others.

>- Respect the work of others, it has taken a lot of time and>effort to do.This may apply to freeware, but definitely does not to PAYWARE. The work that is being put in is relevant only in relation to the results obtained. If the results are not what was promised, the work doesn't matter. THIS is what is called professionalism. I always roll my eyes when I hear people start their excuses with "I was hoping to..." or "I wish..."As the US marine corps says: Hope is not a method. Funny thing, though: The "Buy Now" button always seems to work and never requires a "patch" (or what's now euphemistically called a "service release").ricardo

>>- Respect the work of others, it has taken a lot of time and>>effort to do.>>This may apply to freeware, but definitely does not to>PAYWARE. The work that is being put in is relevant only in>relation to the results obtained. If the results are not what>was promised, the work doesn't matter. THIS is what is called>professionalism. etc...I strongly disagree. Of course, if a feature is promised, and not included, then yes, you have a point, but this is as far as I can go. If this was the only complaint people ever had, they would be justified.Otherwise, people have to realise that there are limitations in FS that can not be overcome. There are many aspects of real word aviation that just aren't modeled in FS. Sometimes developers can write their own modules to get around these limitations, and sometimes not. Many complaints complain about how a particular feature isn't modeled correctly - usually they are right. However, they need to understand that it isn't always possible, and that the developer has gotten it "as close to right" as they can. This isn't the same thing as promising a feature and not delivering.You mention the inevitable patches that come out after release. Usually the patches don't repair any major deficiency, but instead fix many small problems. Naturally, during testing, some things get missed. It is the same with any software, especially games. The fact that they do get patched says something about the dedication of the developer.Even freeware developers are not immune to abuse. Some time ago, someone wrote me to complain about my runways at my Bangkok scenery. He said I missed a taxiway that ran between the two runways at the center of the runways. I have the AIP for Thailand, which includes very acurate diagrams of the airport, and no taxiway exists there. He was adamant that there was, and made some posts on another website about how amateurish (I guess it is) my scenery was. Fortunately, people jumped to my defence, but even after one of them showed him a link to Google Earth that clearly showed no taxiway, he would not relent. Now suppose my scenery was payware - he would have been another voice criticising the accuracy of my work. Whether the user is right or wrong seems irrelevant at this point.- Martin

It has always been like that since Kindergarten : My toy is better than yours :D.Seriously, I understand your thoughts, but I don't see it that negative. To a certain degree it's normal for a hobby with passion. If it's based on facts and not complaining for complaining sake I think it's quite Ok to share opinions. And if I feel fooled, why not mention it. E.g. if company X puts a 727 overhead panel in a 707 with a "most users don't notice it" attitude. If we all say yes to everything, it would be boring, wouldn't it ?Mike

The problem is, to me, some payware companies don't respect their customers, and don't respect the money we spend on their products.Yes there will always be a vocal bunch who compains and insults no matter what... personally if I have an issue with something I purchased that for various reasons was either neglected in terms of patching the bugs, or in terms of customer support, I feel I have every right to bring attention to that, to warn others. Saying there shouldn't be negativity would mean Perfect Flight would still have tons of buyers unaware of their quality, and Captain Sim would have gotten away with the non-existant patch for their 727, and the horribly buggy 707. Even though the Hercules was a great product, they knew they had to make it high quality and release a patch quickly to quiet down people like myself, who were tired of getting burned again. But here I thought they fixed their attitudes and purchased the 757 to grave disappointment. Time will tell whether they have reverted back to their attitude or are willing to listen to customers.

TeroAren't you just complaining about human nature? If you are going to publish a product in the big wide world then you have to take the consequences. In other words, there will be people who like what you've got to sell and there will be people who don't. Some will express their opinions with moderation, offering measured and constructive opinions. Others will shriek their opposition from the rooftops. Some will hate you forever for it, others will defend you to the death. And of course there will always be a number of self-appointed 'experts' who'll swear blind that they're right and you're wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.I would take comfort from the fact that the majority of payware consumers are perfectly well adjusted people who don't fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. In fact I'd say that they're a pretty stoic bunch, sometimes putting up with shabby service from payware producers simply because they've allowed their excitement and passion for the hobby to overrule their heads when making purchasing decisions. As for the 'your product sucks' and 'fix it for me NOW!' brigade, well just try and accept that they've always been there. And if they ARE becoming more prevelant these days, then I think we only have our culture of instant gratification and lack of personal responsibility to blame. There's very little you can do about that. But it would be wrong though to tar all payware consumers with that particular brush.Ian

I agree. You gave some nice rules, but, we can't control others. Best I can do is not get involved in the flames. Often times, I might read somebody's post and want to say something, and then realize that by responding I'm only fanning the fire.There are some people who's posts I read, and some that I don't.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com/FC_StartJava.html] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

>Funny thing, though: The "Buy Now" button always seems to work>and never requires a "patch" (or what's now euphemistically>called a "service release").>>ricardo>This week I actually broke my 'buy now' button. Gave me quite a fright... Visit the Windowlight forum on Avsim... everything you need to know about New Zealand flightsim sceneryhttp://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...forum=203&page=

>I agree. You gave some nice rules, but, we can't control>others. Best I can do is not get involved in the flames. >Often times, I might read somebody's post and want to say>something, and then realize that by responding I'm only>fanning the fire.Actually, the OP isn't asking anyone to "control others."Rather, he is suggesting that - if it applies - we control ourselves... That, of course, is a horse of an entirely different color. ;)Note carefully that he said, "...people should consider when posting their* thoughts..."* redactor's emphasis

>>>>- Respect the work of others, it has taken a lot of time and>>effort to do.>>This may apply to freeware, but definitely does not to>PAYWARE. The work that is being put in is relevant only in>relation to the results obtained. If the results are not what>was promised, the work doesn't matter. THIS is what is called>professionalism. >So payware doesn't take any effort and time at all to produce?The people producing it are somehow superhumans and at the same time far less qualified to do that work than people doing the same for free?Your attitude is quite familiar of the average "everything should be free, everything that is not should be flamed and kicked until it goes away" kid.

On the subject of the particularly baffling issue of arguments of "product X is better than product Y", psychologists, sociologists and anthropologists tell us that the male component of the human race is particularly prone to the tendency to identify with a group, brand or some other identifiable gathering under a banner or a flag and exhibit loyalty which can lead to, in the most extreme cases violence and death. Many obvious examples exist of course, from allegiance to a particular football team (here in the UK we are renowned for producing some of the most aggressive soccer fans) to wars with flag(brand) waving. There is survival value in this......and strength in numbers. The unfortunate thing is that we tend to exhibit such behaviour even when it's not required such as in discussions about things which are a million miles away from survival issues, such as PMDG is better than LDS (A hypothetical remark made for the purposes of illustration only!!!) I admit that I have such feelings of loyalty myself in many instances, but I try to refrain from the pointless arguing, which does unfortunately go on.edited for clarity.

Tero,Your post is the most intelligent, polite and constuctive I have read in a long time.I can understand some wanting a near perfect package to be perfect because they believe that it may be possible and by complaining expect it?I agree with all your points and hope that the present quality remains. We are all so fortunate as a result.Dave T. .........On the Devon Riviera and active 'FlightSim User's Group' member at http://www.flightsimgrpuk.free-online.co.uk/

Hi!I also think that what Tero listed is just human behaviour, it has always been so and I think it will always be. I am a musician, been playing for 25 years, and I can asuure you that similar thinking has been there well before internet. Music is very much about opinions, discussions about the fact who is wrong - who is right and endless comparisons between better musicians and music... for a musician it is pretty useless. He has to select the things he feels are the right things and follow his own path.This is what the most of the payware and freeware designers do as well. They choose their way to do things and try to do that as well as they can. Then comes the conflict when the consumers do not agree, or some of them at least. That's just how it is.About the support forums and endless questions.... the newest and most complex addon airplanes are not easy thing to learn. Manuals are mostly very good, but this is a hobby, not everyone has time to study the manual as well as it should be done. So they go to the forums and ask... only to get answers to read the manual, or even that they shouldn't buy the product if they can't handle learning it. Have you ever thought that it is easier to learn when you have more sources, manual and forums in this case, and that people who actively read the forums will still learn from other people's answers there. Many times RTFM could be answered easily or at least point the one asking to the correct path to find the answer.And a last point... how about turning all the "rules" Tero listed the other way around and think about it? As a designer... why does it make me feel angry that people ask the same questions again and again? What is respect? Or do I get enough respect for the work I have done? Etc. Etc. The things that bother us mostly are our own faults. (This is not meant personally to anyone, except that this affects everyone the same way) Other people kind of draw our own faults to the daylight when they say somthing that conflicts with our own ideas. Now it is our own work to find out why and what to do about it. This is a lifetime job, overwhelming sometimes.Tatu