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N400QW

Developer comparisons and critisism

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Dear AvsimI believe that I represent a few of my fellow simmers out there in my wish.I would like to see a new sub-forum established here at avsim were fs-add on customers such as myself can share their expereiences and comment regarding developers and their products in order to promote the good products on the market and safe-guard the customers from low quality add-ons that are unfairly claiming a share of the market.I am opposed to developer bashing, but I do support constructive critism of certain products that deserve it and also praise for the developers who have brought outstanding add -ons to the market.A sub-forum where comments from people can be posted comparing and discussing the various products would be very useful to us as simmers, as consumers and also to the developers and aspiring developers.Please fellow simmers post your comments on this.On this occasion I would also like to thank avsim for making our hobby possible. Without you it would be a lonely fs world.

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Thats a very thorny subject in my eyes, there are a number of people who would take the opertunity to heap a lot of critisim on certain developers, justified or not.It is very hard to distingush where constructive critism becomes "bashing" and vice-versa.It's a good idea in essence, but would be very difficult to moderate, plus there are almost as many people who have had bad dealings with certain companies as have had good.Dan.

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I agree with Dan. While I like the idea, in fact it's a great idea, I too can visualize it becoming a forum and an outlet for bashing. That being said, maybe some of the flowery praise that is heaped on some developers is a tilted the other way, leaving it up to us, the reader, to find the middle ground. Great idea, but tough call. Maybe implement one on a 30 day trial basis? Maybe part of the problem is that anyone who has an opinion about a particular developer has had experience with more than one. That's almost by definition, as otherwise how would you be able to draw a comparison. Therefore, anyone with an opinion is likely to be a "hardened" addict and will likely have a stronger opinion one way or the other than your more casual user. Just a thought...billg

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Personally, I'd love to see Avsim stand up to this challenge ;-)It would mean that developers would need to take part in this 'new' forum as well as their own individual support forums where of course all legitimate issues should rightly be raised. However, putting my 'consumer' hat on for a minute, I think the idea of a one-stop forum that visitors could go to and get an overview for a product, with input from both users and develpers, is a really great idea.In an ideal world, potential users should be able to go and read a few reviews first to get an idea at least of what is in the product (as opposed to what the hype suggests is in it), but this of course relies on enough reviews appearing quickly. The reality is that reviews can often take many months to appear. Digressing for a moment, I also think developers should be allowed to see and comment on reviews before they are published. The reason being that one FS site published a review on 'our' 727 stating that it seemed to have used the default EADI and EHSI gauges from the 737 in the EFIS version of the plane, whereas in fact it uses all new custom ultrasmooth GDI+ gauges with multiple modes including TCAS and displaying waypoints from any selected FS flightplan!!!! An error that has stil not been corrected either :-(How many developers would try to stop this kind of open forum from happening is another matter of course. Me, I'm happy that we (F1/DF)released what seems, from the forum posts at least, one of the most bug free releases ever. Other developers may not be so happy, but then they may not spend so long in beta testing or taking notice of what beta testers actually tell them!. Even so, I do think that potential users of any commercial product should be able to draw from the experience of others before parting with their credit card details. The result would of course be better finished products that don't leave users feeling like they paid to be beta testers......and no, I'm pointing fingers, it's just something I read fairly frequently.Providing any bashing was backed up with relevant screenshots as evidence and all developers refrain from commenting on other products as a matter of basic good manners (yes, I know I've had to say sorry more than once on this :-( ), this type of forum should at least be tried out.Having said all that, I'll bet there are some good reasons for not doing this......I just can't think of any at the moment.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

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Howdy,two points that come to my mind:1. In what way would such a sub-forum be any different from the current fora other than perhaps a bit more focus? Is the idea to have a sub-forum for each company?2. Anyway, these sub-fora already exist: they get created on-the-fly when you utilize the "Advanced Search" feature of this and many other forums :-outta Cheers, Holger

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Paul Said:>Personally, I'd love to see Avsim stand up to this challenge>>It would mean that developers would need to take part in this>'new' forum as well as their own individual support forums>where of course all legitimate issues should rightly be>raised. However, putting my 'consumer' hat on for a minute, I>think the idea of a one-stop forum that visitors could go to>and get an overview for a product, with input from both users>and develpers, is a really great idea.>Hi Paul, and everyone else.I have to disagree with your statement.Thank goodness, Microsoft, whom without their program, some of these payware developers may not be around, doesn't share the same opinions as some of these developers.Legitimate issues, I feel, can and should be raised wherever the consumer CHOOSES to raise them.Having consumers badgered, coerced, and ridiculed for posting other than some high and mighty payware forum is the worst thing I've seen in this genre in quite a few years. It is wrong, and I see it more and more as developers themselves, or moderators at competing sites, or beta testers with a conflict of interest continually exhibit this type pf behavior.I wonder what this hobby would be like if Microsoft took the same actions as some of these payware minions do?There may be no Avsim, or any other sim site for that matter if the same tact was taken by them.Thankfully they carry enough integrity to not go as far as some of these payware developers currently attempt to do.I offer you a quote, maybe you can figure out who said it, and ponder this thought for a while."Also, of course, our users love to complain about idiosyncrasies within the system (which there are many, and of course they should complain about the issues)."Note the wording, "THEY SHOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT THE ISSUES."This is from the same person who admits on video that the last update in FS9 was to fix, quote "BUGS", not some pie in the sky maintenance update, or feature update, or whatever some developers try to call their bugs these days. :-lol :-lolThe Quote is from Steve Lacey. :-)http://www.steve-lacey.com/If Microsoft can admit their program is full of bugs, why can't some of these developers? The quote also doesn't say that issues can only be raised in a certain place, but other members of the same team have expressed on Video what members here do at Avsim, and what Avsim represents specifically to the genre.Developers have no say, IMHO, in demanding users, or POTENTIAL consumers voice their opinions or questions at only a certain forum instead of here at Avsim or another non-developer site.It is high time, IMHO, that developers take a lesson from Microsoft in this regard and come down off their egotistical high horses and respect members, users, potential users, and others that have a legal right to voice their opinions on their product, or their policies as long as they believe what they are saying is true. And the truth is a defense, as any Attorney can tell you.And if a consumer notes a bug, problem, or whatever without going to the developers preferred forum, in order to warn others who may be contemplating a purchase, it is their right to voice that opinion, and everyone should respect that right to do so, IMHO.I also don't think we need some special forum to do this, and here is why.For every problem, bug, or issue raised, there is in a lot of cases, multiple posts bragging about how great that product is.So if the developers or users want a seperate forum such as the original poster is proposing, then all the bragging posts, screenshot brags, etc.. should be required to go in there as well.I see this as an attempt to corral all the negative posts into one place and still allow all the positive posts to exist in their current form, hence a positive marketing campaign allowed to prosper while mitigating negative opinions and issues to one forum.Well, IMHO, you shouldn't be able to have it both ways. If you want the good to appear in certain places, then the bad, ugly, and truthful should also be allowed to exist.Unless you ban all commercial payware screenshots, and relegate all commercial payware posts to one forum. And that would not be logical or in the members best interest, and isn't that what this is about, the members best interests and NOT the developers.Paul also said:"Digressing for a moment, I also think developers should be allowed to see and comment on reviews before they are published."I also disagree with this, as it introduces a conflict of interest to those publishing a review, and introduces potential censorship of opinions. One can visit another sim site I know of where there appears alleged reviews that are basically marketing ploys to entice a user to buy a product, and in some cases contain affiliate links where compensation may be gained from a sale. If there are inaccuracies, any developer can issue a press release or a post in the forums advising the users why they disagree. Regards,JoeGrab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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"can share their expereiences and comment regarding developers and their products in order to promote the good products""support constructive critism of certain products that deserve it andalso praise for the developers who have brought outstandingadd -ons to the market"It may be only me, but I thought that AVSIM already supported these two activities across all their forums? I have never found a locked thread by any of the moderators in which discussions are mature, well thought out and polite; critical or praising.It is only when the tone becomes confrontational that it is noticed and acted upon by the AVSIM team, as it should be.I vote NO on the additional forum, again my opinion only.

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Paul,I wouldn't mind seeing it also but I might disagree with the fact that other developers should or be forced to stand up to whatever contraversies that may arise.It sounds like a neat idea and we do surf and post in these forums, but to nail us down to where we now would almost have to constantly be monitoring 2 forums defeats the purpose of us having our own forum in the first place...LOL.I think individuals should be able to post what ever they want to say, good or bad. People are smart enough to dissiminate false information from truth. Any real issues would be made an actual news story anyways with a 3rd party reporter. Sometimes it's better to let your customers stand up for you than you try and fight it.In short; I've always said let the users post and say whatever they want to, just don't make me liable for having to monitor and reply to 50 million different posts...hehe. I hate paperwork if you know what I mean. Edit: 1 more thought: I don't like to see locks threads either. Unless a post causes a person to be physically harmed, privacy violated, violates any profanity or pornography rules, or breaks the law, then it should stand. In a proprietary forum of a developer, then the rules can differ, but a media outlet should be lock free excpet for the above mentioned items, IMHO.

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Hi Jeff>I wouldn't mind seeing it also but I might disagree with the>fact that other developers should or be forced to stand up to>whatever contraversies that may arise.I'm saying they'd be force to, though I imagine many would feel obligated in some way.>It sounds like a neat idea and we do surf and post in these>forums, but to nail us down to where we now would almost have>to constantly be monitoring 2 forums defeats the purpose of us>having our own forum in the first place...LOL.I guess most developers habitually monitor their own forums, plus the main one at both Avsim and Flightsim. Adding to this is of course a pain, but the point is that at the moment, newly released products sometimes get harsh comments posted about them in the main forum and are subsequently locked for product bashing. The idea of the original post is that users and potential users be allowed to be critical (allbeit backed up with proff of the failing in a product) in a seperate forum without facing overly protective moderators.>I think individuals should be able to post what ever they want>to say, good or bad. People are smart enough to dissiminate>false information from truth. Any real issues would be made>an actual news story anyways with a 3rd party reporter. >Sometimes it's better to let your customers stand up for you>than you try and fight it.Absolutely agree.>In short; I've always said let the users post and say whatever>they want to, just don't make me liable for having to monitor>and reply to 50 million different posts...hehe. I hate>paperwork if you know what I mean. >>Edit: 1 more thought: I don't like to see locks threads>either. Unless a post causes a person to be physically>harmed, privacy violated, violates any profanity or>pornography rules, or breaks the law, then it should stand. >In a proprietary forum of a developer, then the rules can>differ, but a media outlet should be lock free excpet for the>above mentioned items, IMHO.I guess from the forum owner point of view, allowing an almost free for all approach to a forum will see it soon become the sort of place that know would want to visit anyway, so why bother in the first place.Maybe just allowing a little more slack in the existing forums is a better approach.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

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Hi Holger,>two points that come to my mind:>>1. In what way would such a sub-forum be any different from>the current fora other than perhaps a bit more focus? Is the>idea to have a sub-forum for each company?Goodness no!! What a nightmare that would soon be :-)>2. Anyway, these sub-fora already exist: they get created>on-the-fly when you utilize the "Advanced Search" feature of>this and many other forums You're right of course and as I said to Jeff, maybe a little more slack from the mods would achieve the desired result.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

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Probably Paul. I'm not sure there is an easy fix, but maybe your idea about letting the rules lax a bit for these (Avsim) forums, is the best approach, because they should be neutral anyways.I tend to think that sometimes it's best to let people post the negative stuff. The reason being (from a marketing standpoint) is that if you want someone to do something these best thing to so is to tell them not to do it. HEHE.Anyways, who knows what the best approach really would be.Thanks for the comments. :-)

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>Sorry Joe, you seem to have gone off at a somewhat lengthy>tangent in another direction and I'm to busy to pick through>it all.>:-lol :-lol :-lol:-haherrr... It was a response to two of your own tangents paul. Whatever... Nothing new there.... To each their own :-lolEnjoy your busy time.... ;-)

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How about this for an idea...epinions.com (great site for user reviews), amazon, and many of the online retailers provide a system where average users can submit personal reviews and "ratings" of products, vendors, and many other things. Perhaps this type of system can be set in place so that we can personally review developers, online stores, AND the products they sell! A "helpful" rating system can even be activated to see which REVIEWS the general population thought were the most helpful - an eBay-style user feedback score can be generated so those who contribute truly useful reviews can be separated from those producing agenda-driven drivel. Granted, this would probably take a lot of time to set up, and would need some babysitting - but imagine having a centralized location where we, as AVSIM members, could put up our opinions on a product, vendor, or developer and not have it bump off the bottom of the messageboard. Nevermind another forum - how about a rating/review system! :)-Greg

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While I feel that the majority of the community would be mature enough to handle this, it only takes a few posts to make any good thread go bad. I just don't see how it could not turn into a moderator's worst nightmare. On another note, a huge pet peeve of mine is people posting criticism of payware products in the general boards (for example the msfs discussion) while completely bypassing the vendors support forum. A lot of good information can be gathered by simply reading a vendors support forums BEFORE buying the product to see what kinds of issues people are having. Also, people tend to get frustrated, and feel the need to complain, while completely bypassing technical support. So many "customer complaints" are simple system issues, or even a failure by the customer to read the manual and properly operate the addon. While I like the idea in theory, I am afraid that the intelligent, constructive threads would be lost in a sea of "noise".

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>On another note, a huge pet peeve of mine is people posting>criticism of payware products in the general boards (for>example the msfs discussion) while completely bypassing the>vendors support forum. >>A lot of good information can be gathered by simply reading a>vendors support forums BEFORE buying the product to see what>kinds of issues people are having. >Hi Craig,Users should be able to post wherever they choose to, not where they are coerced to post.And one little problem about your suggestion about visiting support forums.There are now hypocritical payware developers that impose censorship by not allowing prospective buyers to visit or even read their support forums, a trend that will no doubt increase, unfortunately. They attempt, IMHO to hide their bugs, problems, etc. from prospective buyers while their minions post glory posts in the screenshot forums and MSFS general forum.Craig, Have you posted a criticism of MSFS here in the forums or asked about a problem?If so, what makes you so different from what you propose that you posted here instead of going through the tech support at Microsoft?A payware developer is the same in my eyes whether it is Microsoft or another add-on developer. I suggest you look inward at your own support issues in the past before you start telling us about your pet peeves, IMHO.If you desire only criticism in the vendors support forums, then take all those payware screenshots and bragging posts with you as well to those same stealth forums. (Double standard, and quite hypocritical, huh?)IMHO, more and more payware developers and their supporters post all kinds of bragging posts right before and after release, and the moment a bug, criticism, or other negative post appears, the supporters complain that the user should go post in the vendors forums.I find that practice hypocritical, egotistical, and not good for the community as a whole.A user, or prospective user should be able to post their criticism wherever they choose, not where a payware developer or their minions coerce them to post.Seems like a typical double standard being applied here, and if the criticism is warranted in the users opinion, that user can feel free to warn others so they are aware of the flaws before purchase.I don't see any developers of late coming in the forums stating their product is messed up, and they will fix it. They just keep it under wraps as long as they can, IMHO, and instead of embracing the members here, they protect their precious potential sales, instead of taking the integrity road of disclosing their bugs.These developers can learn from a Freeware developer who had problems after release yesterday, (LaPalma), and worked hard through the forums here to rectify it. That developer I respect, for they have the integrity to admit their faults, fix them and move on with what is a quality freeware release.Regards,Joeaopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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Joe,"IMHO, more and more payware developers and their supporters post all kinds of bragging posts right before and after release, and the moment a bug, criticism, or other negative post appears, the supporters complain that the user should go post in the vendors forums.I find that practice hypocritical, egotistical, and not good for the community as a whole."Telling someone that support requests should go in the support forum of the company who made the product is egotistical? We have a hardware forum for hardware posts, a screen shot forum, etc. I am not coerced to go there, rather my personal experiences have encouraged me to do so. I can post a question about a particular addon and actually open up a dialog with the person (or persons) who actually did the work on it. That is really a unique opportunity which does not happen with software. You want payware companies to answer to criticisms, so why not give them the chance by sending your problems or questions right to them? That said, there are some vendors out there with strict censorship and/or closed forums, but I personally don't do business with those companies. I should have clarified that earlier. As to your other points, I don't make threads promoting payware addons. I have no problem with them, but I don't make them myself for the very reason you mention. Although I would not consider posting screenshots of a product in this category. That is what the ss forum is for, is it not? You obviously have had some VERY negative experiences out there, and that is too bad. It does happen, I'm not telling anyone it doesn't. However, don't judge everyone based on a few bad experiences. Telling people that they shouldn't even try to be heard is just wrong. I once purchased an addon and once I flew it at night, the gauges showed up incorrectly. I posted in this vendors forum, and within an hour I received an e-mail with a fix attached. If I had instead only posted in msfs general, what would have happened? My point is, if you go to the vendor and you do not receive an adequate response, then go ahead and post your experience anywhere you like. I would encourage you to do so. Even cross-post it here and on the vendor forum. Copy-and-pasting only takes a few seconds of your time.

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I think this is a great idea. What's the big deal with a bit more organization? Upon a release of a new product I always go to the forums first to read up on it - and it would be nice if I didn't have to do a huge search all the time.If people don't like the extra forum - they don't have to visit it! Of course it would have to have a good set of rules - basically common sense stuff - don't post something non justifiable, everyone approach the posts with the realization that it's just one persons opinion, and have a mature approach to it.To be honest I take more faith in individual reports on a product in a forum thread than a "official" review sometimes as if someone posts something that's complete nonesense others will surely rise to say that. In the end I see no harm at all in better organization of something that already exists.

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Couldn't agree more Craig. The vendor has first hand knowledge of his product, provides a support forum for his product, requires registration and login ala Avsim.com, Flightsim.com, Simflight Network, etc and is accused of locking out the "complainers and catering to the "glory posters":-)Anyone who wishes to may register and login to support forums and post whether they are product owners or not.What MOST developers do NOT allow are complainers who do not even own the products in question but obviously have an agenda...Let's face it...there ARE chronic complainers, bashers, and inflated ego's who feel THEY are must police the developers in order to protect the "poor consumer" who "cannot make an intelligent decision" without the aforementioned "consumer activist type" posting HIS opinions and arguments for all to see:-)We happen to feel that anyone who is a potential customer is perfectly capable of making an "intelligent purchase decision" on their own without coercion from anyone.The originator of this thread seemed to be asking for a "Consumers Reports" type of forum but in our humble opinion it would not work for the reasons stated here:-)We do agree however with Mr. Golding that developers should have an opportunity to correct mistakes by reviewers such as Paul cited.Seems an injustice to them to have to endure misinformation just because the reviewer didn't "do his job":-)

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>>and safe-guard the customers from low quality add-ons that are>unfairly claiming a share of the market.What's so unfair about it? Some people like low-quality inexpensive products. Many like to throw their money into a new product immediately after the release without doing any homework. Who are you to tell them what not to buy. Also such "crticisms and comparisons" are almost a daily feature of Avsim forums already - no need for another forum.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

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Ha ha, have to agree with you since a new forum would most likely do nothing but provide another platform for the multiple posting of certain peoples "opinions" of what "they" think is best for the community :-lol

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