Yoke by DIAGMA simulator hardware

[MartinRex007]

Nice that you can swap yoke handles maybe even a yoke like the Hawker, RAM horn will be available in the future?

[n19htmare]

I'm surprised that there was very little input from the buyers early on. The latest updates to the stick seemed to have fixed some of the initial issues so I bit the bullet and ordered one. 

From the tear down videos I've seen on Youtube, it looks to be a very well built with easily serviceable parts if needed. everything in the yoke appears to be using off the shelf parts with modified use. (angle sensors easily available for replacement, Leo Bodnar USB controller, bungee friction a opposed to springs, fully molded handles, desk clamp. I'm sorry but that's quite the list for an under $500 stick ($475 to be exact shipped!). The modding potential appears to be higher as well, I don't think it would be difficult to swap the angle sensors for the some contact less HALL sensors as long as the Leo Bodnar controller can accept it.

I was about ready to drop $1250 on the Yoko PLUS but decided to give this a shot. I'll report back w/ some high res pictures/videos on the supposed "Updated" model. 

I'll be sure to not "disappear" after getting mine either haha.

-Moe

[MartinRex007]

Moe, Look forward to you feedback...

 

Cheers

Martin

[n19htmare]

I'm looking forward to it myself. I've been in the market for a sub $500 unit myself. I've found some but to be honest, I've not be impressed. take the VR insight for example, using multiple springs connecting the shaft to the edges to provide resistance.... wasn't too excited about springs after having to mod my Saitek. 
When I came across the above video by avgas2much, I was actually impressed by the internals. Seems SOLID and the bungee options just seems so much smoother. 
In addition it appears to be using a pair of Conductive Plastic Potentiometers. Did a bit of digging on these type of Potentiometers and what I read has been positive. I can't speak to the qualify of the actual units used in the Diagama but the technology and the specs of the unites itself sounds very impressive. 

here are some tidbits linking to resources as well: 
https://www.hoffmann-krippner.com/pdfs/choosing-the-right-potentiometer.pdf
This technology is now the first choice for high-grade mass products that require long life and accuracy.
In the best case, the accuracy of conductive-plastic potentiometers can be linearized up to 0.05%. The
operating life cycles can far exceed 10 million cycles and are often limited only by their associated
mechanical parts. 

http://www.vishay.com/docs/54001/mtgeninf.pdf
2 - COMMON APPLICATIONS
Conductive plastic potentiometers are used in all kinds of fields
e.g.: military, aerospace, automotive, medical, measurement,
robotics, nuclear and of course general industrial.
In particular they are suitable for guided missiles, flight control
equipment, wheel balancing and wheel alignment machinery for
vehicles, XY chart recorder, physiotherapy apparatus, professional
joystick and servo control of actuators on moulding machinery

The whole thing on paper looks industrial rugged with potential for modding and easy swap of parts....  example on the sensors: 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/VK-ORIGINAL-WDD35D-0-1-1K-WDD35D-4-WDD35D4-WDY35D4-1K-2K-5K-10K-0/32835444350.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.123.536e4b60u4vJ0l&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_9_10065_10130_10068_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_10084_453_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_52,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=e7baccbd-57e8-4583-844b-c49a6f96e42d-19&algo_pvid=e7baccbd-57e8-4583-844b-c49a6f96e42d&transAbTest=ae803_5

not exactly a $2 part but easily available.

I like the idea of having the hardware but not being tied down to the manufacturer for future servicing once out of warranty or anything. 

Maybe Azat can chime in.

[Wmacky]

I received my yoke a couple weeks ago. Overall, I'm happy with it. I like the mechanical design and feel.  The mechanics are heavy duty and much like the $1000+ yokes, and most importantly it feels substantial when moving the yoke, and it feels realistic. Like there are real flight surfaces attached at the other end!  I've never owned the cheap "Best Buy" plastic yokes, but this must be worlds away from the feel they give. The bad is that it's all a little rough around the edges. especially the case. . The exception would be the handle. This part is very, very nice, both in feel, and looks. It appears finely finished, and seems 100% authentic. ( I requested the "Middle size" Cessna handle). The case, not so much. It's a little too heavy duty. It's made of steel, but not the type used for audio, or computer equipment. This is like the heavy plate steel at welding shops that cattle trailers are built from. super heavy with welded seams. Hard to remove, reinstall, and line up. Mine was twist somewhat causing the yoke to wobble on a flat surface. I kept the yoke but asked for replacement cover / case. The new one was better, but not 100%. 

Still, compared to the pricing of the other more expensive yokes, this IS the deal. It would just be a better deal with a better designed / lighter case. Honestly, this would be the max I would be willing to spend for a non feedback yoke, That eliminates the other more expensive non FFB yokes for me, susch as the Yoko. For that much money I would save more and get a Bruner. So, that makes the Diagma the only non FFB option as far as I'm concerned.

[n19htmare]

On 7/13/2019 at 2:38 PM, Wmacky said:

I received my yoke a couple weeks ago. Overall, I'm happy with it. I like the mechanical design and feel.  The mechanics are heavy duty and much like the $1000+ yokes, and most importantly it feels substantial when moving the yoke, and it feels realistic. Like there are real flight surfaces attached at the other end!  I've never owned the cheap "Best Buy" plastic yokes, but this must be worlds away from the feel they give. The bad is that it's all a little rough around the edges. especially the case. . The exception would be the handle. This part is very, very nice, both in feel, and looks. It appears finely finished, and seems 100% authentic. ( I requested the "Middle size" Cessna handle). The case, not so much. It's a little too heavy duty. It's made of steel, but not the type used for audio, or computer equipment. This is like the heavy plate steel at welding shops that cattle trailers are built from. super heavy with welded seams. Hard to remove, reinstall, and line up. Mine was twist somewhat causing the yoke to wobble on a flat surface. I kept the yoke but asked for replacement cover / case. The new one was better, but not 100%. 

Still, compared to the pricing of the other more expensive yokes, this IS the deal. It would just be a better deal with a better designed / lighter case. Honestly, this would be the max I would be willing to spend for a non feedback yoke, That eliminates the other more expensive non FFB yokes for me, susch as the Yoko. For that much money I would save more and get a Bruner. So, that makes the Diagma the only non FFB option as far as I'm concerned.

 

I just got mine today. I took some un-boxing pictures and some pictures overall that I will post later but I agree with you 100% on your analysis and I have pretty much the same conclusion from the few hours I've been using it today. 

First and foremost, the most important part to me as far as a yoke goes is how is it mechanically and that I'm going to agree with you say it's REALLY GOOD!  I'm coming from a modded Saitek with rubber bands and this feels so different. The resistance increases as you increase the input. It's a little on the higher resistance side, but I like it. Maybe it will loosen up a bit once the bungee cords get worn in? I'm not sure. 

Accuracy: It's VERY accurate, like due to the Leo Bodnar BU0836A 12-Bit Joystick Controller. The controller is expandable s it has room for additional switches, including connections for a 8-way hat switch, the input options are there and can be  modded to include additional switches if one wants. 

Centering: There is no indent in the middle, the crossover from center is butter smooth bother in roll and pitch. As you increase the input, the resistance increases as well. Once calibrated, I did multiple releases from full deflection and the yoke always centered to the same value +- - 0.05% (Often to the dot at 50% on the Pitch)

Build: Everything on this yoke feels SOLID. Heavy gauge steel, Heavy duty sealed lubricated bearings. Everything is mounted to a thick HDPE (appears to the stuff cutting boards are made of, but smoother and thicker). That HDPE base is mounted to the metal base on a rail. I think there is a some sort of roller system that rides on two small round steel rods mounted on side of the rail.  Wiring is clean and organised and as I said above, is using the Conductive Plastic Potentiometers which appear to be decent and accurate per my tests.

It's SOLID but fit and finish leaves a bit to be desired. Just like the other reviewer above, I also have a wobble, which gets corrected when I use the table mount, to me It's a non issue once mounted. I think it is attributed by the design of the case's top cover. Everything internal is mounted to the bottom panel, the bottom panel then slides into the top case which as lips on the bottom, those lips have screw holes and the bottom panel has the threaded holes. Not everything lines up, which I think causes the bottom sheet to possibly go askew once screwed in. Also It's very hard to remove/reinstall the screws due to the rough threading and holes not lining up perfectly.  For example on my unit, once screwed in the right side doesn't sit flush with the front side of yoke, as if it has an outward buckle, maybe I can straighten out the side of the case. ALL OF THIS IS IF YOU INSPECT IT UP-CLOSE. Otherwise, It's hard to tell, it just looks and feels SOLID!

Handle: It's a solid chunk of molded plastic that's been painted and finished to a glossy look. It's VERY NICE but it's not PERFECT, some areas have some dimples and rough spots mostly on the back. Looks like epoxy/plastic material was injected into a mold but the trapped air caused these dimples. Again the screws to hold the button plates, they don't line up, screwed at an angle etc. I took the left plate off to correct the screws because they were screwed at an angle and not flush, and while screwing one back in, the screw head snapped on me, not the highest quality screws. the yoke is too SOLID for cheap screws....Again this is nit picky stuff. Overall it's a solid good feeling, good fitting handle. 

Luckily on the handle, there is an empty space next to the hole that the screw snapped in, I plan on filling this and all the holes with epoxy and getting some flush-mount hex screws and re-threading for a nicer fit/finish of the buttons plate.

Overall I've very happy with the purchase. I think in this price range the stick has LOTS of potential with just a couple of aesthetic improvements. Functionally I think they nailed it. Also, I love the fact that the yoke can be modded easily since a lot of the parts are off the shelf parts and you can add buttons to the case or the handle if you wish since the Controller has room to expand. 

If you are capable of it, lot of the shortcomings can be fixed....re-threading/realigning etc.

Because functionally and mechanically this yoke is VERY VERY GOOD, I plan on keeping it, and may spend some time to remedy some of the cosmetic/finish issues I listed above.

 

https://imgur.com/a/I3jwBMN SOME PICTURES HERE. 

 

 

 

 

[MartinRex007]

n19htmare-

Thanks for the review, it is really helpful in deciding on what yoke too buy. Its price point for what you get looks pretty good!

Cheers

Martin

 

[n19htmare]

5 hours ago, MartinRex007 said:

n19htmare-

Thanks for the review, it is really helpful in deciding on what yoke too buy. Its price point for what you get looks pretty good!

Cheers

Martin

 

Sure, happy to help the community. If anyone has any questions or would like me to test/try something, let me know. 

 

The more I use the stick, the more I'm impressed by it and it's price (I paid the sale price during the 4th of the July sales which put it an under $500 yoke for me). It's still an expensive piece of kit for a lot of people but compared to what's out there in the same range, I think it can compete well in that very small segment. I feel like there's the cheap plastic segment or the high sub $1000 segment...companies have really failed to deliver in the sub $500 segment with very few choices.

I happen to heavily agree with the other reviewer a few posts above me that a non-feedback stick shouldn't really be more than $5-$600 for a what essentially is a pole mounted on a rail with bungee cords and couple of sensors :), but that's just my opinion. 

[MartinRex007]

Also, if you mention to the owner of Diagma, (a really nice guy who I met at the Las Vegas Flightsim Expo) regarding some of the small issues you mentioned he might be able to address those during manufacturing.

Cheers

Martin

[MarkDH]

7 hours ago, n19htmare said:

I happen to heavily agree with the other reviewer a few posts above me that a non-feedback stick shouldn't really be more than $5-$600 for a what essentially is a pole mounted on a rail with bungee cords and couple of sensors :), but that's just my opinion. 

I'm not sure where 'shouldn't' comes from but I expect you're saying you don't understand why it's hard to build and mass-produce something good that you can sell at that price for a reasonable profit. I guess many before you have thought so and failed, most likely because 'a pole mounted on a rail with bungee cords and couple of sensors' doesn't capture all the engineering challenges that will only become evident when you try. Nicky Repenning said something illuminating in a recent video promoting the Honeycomb yoke, which was that he wanted to cater for the full range of users: from flight-simmers, who hold the yoke with both hands, to student pilots, who hold it with three fingers. That's a major engineering challenge right there.

[n19htmare]

On 7/24/2019 at 10:21 AM, MarkDH said:

I'm not sure where 'shouldn't' comes from but I expect you're saying you don't understand why it's hard to build and mass-produce something good that you can sell at that price for a reasonable profit. I guess many before you have thought so and failed, most likely because 'a pole mounted on a rail with bungee cords and couple of sensors' doesn't capture all the engineering challenges that will only become evident when you try. Nicky Repenning said something illuminating in a recent video promoting the Honeycomb yoke, which was that he wanted to cater for the full range of users: from flight-simmers, who hold the yoke with both hands, to student pilots, who hold it with three fingers. That's a major engineering challenge right there.

I may have been too general and vague in my comment to make a point about a missing a price segment that may be the sweet spot for a mid-high/high tier yoke. I understand fully the feat required to create a product to reach the economies of scale required for it to be feasible, especially for a niche market like ......Flight simmers. I'm just surprised that the segment is practically...empty. My budget of $500-$600 left me with not very many options at all, there have been multiple threads on this topic.

People either lean to the cheaper non premium options or have to dish out practically double for a PFC or a YOKO etc (and most can't).  The only thing I found in the range was the VRInsight Flight Master Yoke II/III. But info on it was scant, very little on reviews/users and from what I saw, I was not exactly impressed for the price to be honest. 

The Diagma purchase was, to be honest a leap of faith, for me (The sale price of $475 shipped really was the tipping point for me to push order), and I'm glad I bit the bullet because I'm truly impressed at the performance, are there shortcomings? Of course but at $475, I expect them :).  my X and Y axis were cross wired for crying out loud, nothing I couldn't fix (hardware or software wise) but stuff like this prolly will happen. 

It's comparable to someone milling the parts in their shop and taking  off the shelf parts to create their version of a replica high end yoke, that's how I look at it, something that was put together in a garage, not mass produced in a factory in China but it works, and it works GREAT.

 

I'm hoping Honeycomb can deliver all that is promised because I missed their Pre-Order on the throttle quadrant and price has been inching up 😞 (which circles around to our first point of reaching economies of scale)... Maybe I need to walk down their HQ in San Diego, I literally live down the street from em ha. 

 

By the way, I'm in no way shape or form endorsed by Diagma, I just think they have a solid  product (figuratively and literally) that fits a missing segment. 

There's no argument here from me, just my point of view on things. 

 

[MarkDH]

12 hours ago, n19htmare said:

I'm just surprised that the segment is practically...empty. My budget of $500-$600 left me with not very many options at all...
...The only thing I found in the range was the VRInsight Flight Master Yoke II/III. But info on it was scant, very little on reviews/users and from what I saw, I was not exactly impressed for the price to be honest.

Yes, and I believe GoFlight tried and also failed to fill the niche. I don't know why but I will speculate that it so far hasn't been possible to make a Yoko or a PFC for that price and what you end up with instead is a slightly better Saitek or CH that people won't buy because costs too much. Perhaps Nicki Repenning has cracked it, but he has yet to release his yoke into the wild. Fulcrum claims to have done it, but whether that will ever get into production and with its present (already mid-range) price is unknown.

[BigG433]

Just checked the Diagma site and all of the products show as out of stock. Does anyone know if this is a temporary situation?

[MartinRex007]

The website is not responding to any inputs, so maybe they are upgrading their website, it does look different. Even the "contact us" is not working. Give it a day or two? Hopefully that's all it is?

Cheers

Martin

[n19htmare]

4 hours ago, BigG433 said:

Just checked the Diagma site and all of the products show as out of stock. Does anyone know if this is a temporary situation?

When I called to inquire about my order  couple of weeks ago(delayed shipping), I was told they were in middle of a move and shut down the order system because they were falling behind on fulfilling open orders and moving at the same time. 

It took nearly 3 weeks to ship mine out, I'm sure Im not the only one that was calling and asking for updates so they must have shut it all down for now.

I think the company has a long way to go when it comes to sales side of things.  Their website is minimalist, for example when I selecting yoke style, I had no idea what they even looked like.   Instead of marking everything sold out, they should have also put the reason in the landing page as to WHY? 

seems like Azat tries to handle everything as a one man show but might be bit too much to do it all, or to have expertise in all departments and probably doesn't have the budget for Sales staff.

I'll shoot him an email, maybe he can chime in here.